Trump vs Clinton Round 2. Bigger debate than the last one.

[claig]

Round 2, Monday morning 2 am UK time.

Will "the real Trump" show up?

'Do you think he was advised to send random deranged tweets in the middle of the night?'

Let Trump be Trump.

Those top advisers sound like The Establishment to me. Surely he's going to break those shackles.

Thank you Claig, I think that answers my question.

"Let Trump be Trump."

Ah, so not going to be restrained by advisors then. Glad we've cleared that one up.

This is pretty telling:

Rasmussen poll which is reliable, Oct 14

"Eighty-seven percent (87%) of voters now say they’ve made up their minds how they will vote, and among these voters, it’s Trump 48%, Clinton 46%. Among those who say they still could change their minds between now and Election Day, it’s Trump 37%, Clinton 36%, Johnson 17% and Stein 9%. "

www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/white_house_watch_oct14

The Establishment are worried, very worried. There was a state sheriff who spoke at a Trump rally in Ohio the other night and he said to the crowd of thousands "if you believe the media, Trump has no one voting for him". Everyone knows the media is lying, everyone knows they are scared and are in the tank for the Establishment.

Brexit was big. It stunned Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, the BBC and Oxbridge, but it is as nothing compared to the American people putting Trump over the line. Their whole world is about to change.

Rock'n'roll. USA! USA! USA!

In 2012, Rasmussen was 20th/23 for reliability among pollsters, with a pronounced Republican bias (Wikipedia).

The election comes down to the swing state results. Florida is probably the tipping point, yet again(!!) I have 2 friends (Uk residents) voting in other swing states, Xfingers.

Good article by Anne Applebaum here on Trump and populism:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/the-dangerous-promise-of-populism-free-money/2016/09/23/1c6595d2-81b6-11e6-8327-f141a7beb626story.html?utmm_term=.a4e06090b4a3

Yes, because he is surrounded by advisers. He won't be making the decisions on his own, he has top advice from top people.

You mean, the advisers who told him it wouldn't be a good idea to mock the mother of a dead American soldier? Or that it wouldn't be a good idea to say that abortion should be a punishable offence? Or that he should stop making misogynist, racist and disablist comments?

In relation to claim's claim that Trump doesn't tell lies, do look at this little history and tell us which part of that is not deliberate and really distasteful lying?

"Nationalization, spending promises, empty slogans: Politicians who cynically promise the impossible wind up with hyper-inflation if they deliver — or political catastrophe if they don’t. Failed populism often leads to radical populism, and radical populism to violence: When people don’t get what they’ve been promised, they get angry. These were lessons learned in the 20th century, but it looks like we might have to repeat them in the 21st. Nothing is new about this populist moment, only the faces and flags have changed."

Claig and WW ... just watch because this is why Trump is down in the ratings, despite your protestations otherwise claig.

That's a good speech. And her delivery is beautiful.

Very impressive and eloquent speech from Michelle.

Yes, she sums it up.

If Michelle Obama stood today, less than a month before the election, as an independent she would win. If Bloomberg stood as in independent today he would win. The independent candidates we have are not awful. I would have liked to have heard from them at the debates. The whole system is rotten and it needs to change.

MO articulated the issues with voting for Trump and HC. I maintain that if my DH took advantage of a 19 year old intern at work I would leave him. There is absolutely no way I would condone that behaviour any staying married to such a man means you have accepted it. HC is just as bad as Trump. HC has based her campaign on 'Two for the price of one' and said she would put BC in charge of sorting out the economy. Quite frankly I do not want BC anywhere near public office. How anyone could even consider him suitable after the way he treated many women working him throughout his career is beyond me.

Sexism, racism, misogyny etc. are learned. No-one is born a racist or a misogynist. We acquire them through cultural forces. The answer is education. I find it distasteful in the extreme when people sneer and castigate others for actions illustrative of fewer educational opportunities and life chances that others may have had. Indeed, the single factor that I've found most troubling in the GE, Brexit and POTUS campaigns has been the sneery tone adopted against the less well educated or knowledgeable people who simply may never have had the opportunity to learn to think differently.

It's not my job to teach men like Trump to think differently.

I was referring to the sneering directed at Trump supporters. Trump is a product of our culture. There are millions of Trumps out there. If we were really serious about eradicating sexism or racism, we would have done it by now. It's not like we are trying to hold back a tsunami. But we don't. Instead, we perpetuate their inevitability by tinkering around the edges. We teach our children about the ever-present fear of racist violence or rape, we set up a veritable industry around counselling and psychotherapy of its victims, we devote countless hours of writing to arguing whether victims should be referred to as victim or survivor, we spend millions on the legal and penal processes. What's missing from this list is a genuine re-education of boys and girls into different ways of thinking about men and women.

In a very real sense it is Trump who is the victim. Poor Trump. Made to do bad things by society.

Those trump supporters will never have the chance to think differently if their fears and frustrations are continually manipulated by men like Trump and farage.

Fourmummy all those things would indeed be grand, but would be rendered utterly meaningless if we were to accept someone with Trump's views and behaviour in high office.

nauticant

Donald trump is 6 ft 2

A great (but long) piece on Trump and the GOP here in case anyone missed it:

www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/the-fury-and-failure-of-donald-trump-w444943

"He was unable to stop being a reality star. Trump from the start had been playing a part, but his acting got worse and worse as time went on, until finally he couldn't keep track: Was he supposed to be a genuine traitor to his class and the savior of the common man, or just be himself, i.e., a bellicose pervert with too much time on his hands? Or were the two things the same thing? He was too dumb to figure it out, and that paralysis played itself out on the Super Bowl of political stages. It was great television. It was also the worst thing that ever happened to our electoral system.
Trump's shocking rise and spectacular fall have been a singular disaster for U.S. politics. Built up in the press as the American Hitler, he was unmasked in the end as a pathetic little prankster who ruined himself, his family and half of America's two-party political system for what was probably a half-assed ego trip all along, adventure tourism for the idiot rich."

Donald trump is 6 ft 2 with small hands