Trump vs Clinton Round 2. Bigger debate than the last one.

[claig]

Round 2, Monday morning 2 am UK time.

Will "the real Trump" show up?

WW, no, actually. I'm inclined to believe that Bill Clinton has committed rape and sexual assault, although I am surprised that his accusers are willing to allow themselves to be used by Trump. I find Hillary's role very problematic, although accounts of how great her involvement was in the 'defence' of Clinton vary. Would I have left him? I'd like to think so. We live in an appallingly misogynistic world, including politicians of every party.

It doesn't mean I want to participate in a race to the bottom in which a man who describes women as 'it' gets to be US President.

The movement behind Trump condones what he says. What he says is repugnant.

Four mummy I just realised I completely agreed with you while appearing to disagree. Whoever said about the n word I heard that too. Might be just a smear rumour. If it's true he could not survive.

I don't understand. Deplore or not deplore? I didn't understand your post.

Three - best not to sneer at millions of people who feel aggrieved, unheard, disenfranchised, left behind and lost.

WW, do you know the demographics show that not many Trump voters fit that description? It's a fallacy. There are lot of white men with money and jobs who don't like modern America. I don't feel remotely sorry for them.

No I should imagine the sneering and the scorning makes you feel great about yourself.

Agree Liney, he is hardly anti-establishment.

I watched some, fell asleep, woke up, watched some, fell asleep and so on.. feel soooo tired this morning

I agree with the pundits, he will have reinforced his support but not gained any undecideds.

I absolutely hated the way he roamed round behind HC, sometimes very close to her, whilst she was talking. To me it looked intimidating.

His ignorance on Syria last night was quite astounding and not agreeing on policy with Pence worrying (is it not very strange to admit you haven't even talked to your running mate prior to a very important live debate?)

Threatening to jail HC was a ridiculous statement in a democratic country and I really wasn't much interested in what he said after that...it sums up how he thinks he will run the Country... ban muslims, throw HC in jail, build walls, bomb the hell out the ME, it's all just nasty rhetoric.

I dread Hillary getting in and I'm beginning to think she will. I just dread it.

Posting that has just made me realise that - would I actually prefer Donald Trump? I've spent the last four months thinking how awful they both are. They're both actually even worse than I thought. But would I actually vote for him to keep her out? I can't imagine it.

'and not agreeing on policy with Pence worrying (is it not very strange to admit you haven't even talked to your running mate prior to a very important live debate?) '

Pence is Establishment and takes the Establishment position on Syria. Trump his disagreed with the Establishment from the start on that. It is a bit like Corbyn who disagrees with most of his MPs on Trident.

The lesser of two evils maybe WW?

I wanted Bernie Sanders to come through if only for his vow to ban assault weapons.

But what will happen to this 'disagreement' should he win? You have a President and VP at odds with each other on a crucial issue - doesn't bode well does it?

'But what will happen to this 'disagreement' should he win?'

Trump will win. Tjhe VP has very little say. If Trump wins, there will be huge changes.

Well I wanted bernie Sanders to win too. The movement's the same behind both of them.

The only Guardian commentator who reviewed the debate well

"It is clear that Trump’s pre-game press conference not only got talking heads to change the conversation, but it got Hillary Clinton – once believed to be unflappable – off her game, in a big way.

If Clinton was prepared for whatever Trump threw at her, it certainly didn’t come across in this debate.

Gone was the happy warrior from the last debate; in its place was a new defensive Hillary Clinton.

Trump kept Clinton on her heels for the entire debate. Whether sparring over Obamacare or foreign policy or tax reform or job creation, he effectively kept hammering her on her 30-year record.

Instead of a debate that was focused on Trump’s vulgar comments, the debate was focused on policy issues, and despite all of Clinton’s “preparation” when it came to the nuts and bolts of policy, Trump managed to not only go toe-to-toe with Clinton, he often got the best of her.

Trump needed to win tonight to stay alive. Clinton did not. Trump won, and he lives to fight another day. This race is far from over."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/09/presidential-debate-reactions-trump-clinton

But Trump will be hit with much, much more in the coming days, so the debate performance won't change much.

WinchesterWoman

You're right that he's not political establishment, but he's still establishment.
He managed to gain notoriety by presenting himself as anti-establishment, which has served hin well.
Having said that, he's not career political establishment, but he's been intimately involved with the political establishment for decades.

His break up with the system is pure entertainment for his gain. Not a genuine disatisfaction with how the US is. He's done well to tap into that dissatisfaction and anyone would know the US were ready for a power change. It's amazing, in fact, that GOP hasn't managed to take full advantage of it. A less odious Trump would probably be miles ahead of Hillary. In that respect, he's failing miserably.

'It's amazing, in fact, that GOP hasn't managed to take full advantage of it. A less odious Trump would probably be miles ahead of Hillary.'

Only Trump is capable of challenging the Etablishment, only a billionaire who knows how they work and what they do. The rest of teh Republicans are all part of teh system. George H W Bush is vting for Hillary. The system works together, they are "all in it together", it s not a real contest usually and they all follow the same Establishment line on Syria or whatever else they are told to do. Trump has shaken the entire system and the Republican voters have shown by suporting Trump that they never beieved in most of the values of teh Republican Establishment that they had to put up with because the system gave them no other choice. As pundits have said "the genie is out of the bottle" and there is now no going back for the people or the Republican Party. Just as David Cameron is gone and the public doesn't care, the Republican Establishment is gone and only they care.

Lweji I explained earlier what I thought was behind his stance and I still believe it, I think he started of with a stunt and some bandwagoning, but I honestly think now he has been moved by the number of people who feel that he is their voice. I think that at least, is genuine.

Just as Bernie challenged the core of the Goldman Sachs Democrats like Hillary with their Establishment free trade globalisation ideology, Trump has smashed the entire Republican ideology and moved some of teh positions towards Bernie's. Trump has shown that the people never believed or liked Ted Cruz and the rest of the Establishment. Bernie had a movement and Trump has a movement, an insurgency and it threatens to topple the entire Establishment way of doing business.

"Has Donald Trump Wrecked the Republican Ideological Coalition?
...
the authors didn't take the opportunity to examine the Donald Trump phenomenon in light of all this. In 2016, we've learned that perhaps the Republican coalition isn't actually as ideologically committed as we thought: conservatives are voting for Trump in large numbers despite his rather obvious disdain for standard Fox News right-wing principles. In 2012, the Republican primary battle was between the tea partiers (Gingrich, Santorum, Perry, Bachmann) and the moderates (Romney), but that's not happening this year. Instead, it's been a battle between Trump and everyone."

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/04/has-donald-trump-wrecked-republican-ideological-coalition

'it's been a battle between Trump and everyone."'

It's been a battle of the people and the Establishment/media/Wall Street.

You know, thinking about it, I'm not sure they've got the n word. That would be such a deal breaker for everyone, why not deploy it now? Save all the bother of a crappy debate performance and all that. It doesn't matter if it's now or November 7th - it would be such a hammer blow.

Whoever said about the n word I heard that too. Might be just a smear rumour. If it's true he could not survive

He'll survive the n-word. Jay-Z says it all the time

I've just realised something else, in response to Lweji's response to my 'capitalism does not equal Marxism' comment. When I said that, I was pre-empting the usual Pavlovian knee-jerk response whenever someone utters the word 'capitalism'. We've been conditioned to think that a Marxist analysis is the only way to understand this system. I was merely pointing out that there are other, perhaps more applicable to current global circumstances, ways to view capitalism. People understand Trump's brand of capitalism (small time, nationalist). They don't understand this global thing that's going on. They don't understand open borders. They don't understand uncontrolled mass immigration. They don't understand what these things are for or why they are happening. They don't understand huge multinationals. They don't understand how the Clinton Foundation works and how she has got mega-rich from it within a short space of time. They don't understand why she'd accept bribes from ideologues who hate her and us. And nobody, but nobody has been able to explain it. Any of it. These things are all new. On the other hand, they understand Trump, a crooked, racist, sexist businessman. He's small fry by comparison. They understand his business dealings, his tax evasion, his racism and his sexism because 'they' all do it (Clinton's private racism toward Obama has been noted). He is transparent because he talks about what is already well-known. She is confusing because she has done unexpected, new things.

'it's been a battle between Trump and everyone."'

There is no way back for the Republican Party without Trump. No one trusts them or the Establishment any more, just as they don't trust David Cameron and that lot any more and don't care that they are now long gone from politics.

Oh actually he does have the Clinton birther thing on his side

I honestly think now he has been moved by the number of people who feel that he is their voice. I think that at least, is genuine

That he is honestly moved? Sorry, I don't get that feeling at all.

'I'm not sure they've got the n word. That would be such a deal breaker for everyone, why not deploy it now? '

Because they are worried that Trump will recover and hit them back with what he has on them. They will wait until the next debate before hitting him with that so that they give him no time to recover as the blanket media coverage is used to slam him in the final phase.

I am certain they have much more on Trump and have saved it to last. But Trump has stuff on them too. It depends if he has the courage to use it because the media will help them out of the hole.