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with the terrible history Jews have, why is Israel behaving like this?

999 replies

ssd · 20/07/2014 23:22

I would have thought they would be showing more compassion for a repressed minority but the opposite is happening

and Netanyahu saying they told the Palestinians to leave because they were going to be fired on...where the bloody hell would they go to?? IF THEY COULD GO AT ALL

OP posts:
dancingwithmyselfandthecat · 25/07/2014 18:42

how many have the rockets killed?

springheeled I'm not sure what points this makes. Hamas isn't less culpable morally because it has tried to kill more Israelis than it has succeeded in killing. Nor would Israel's actions be more acceptable if more people had died. Proportionality in international law isn't a tit for tat.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 18:44

Under 100 Israeli fatalities over the decade afaik, thanks to bomb shelters and Iron Dome.

How many rockets have been fired, how many have exploded away from civilian centres, and how many have been intercepted?

How would you like to live in a place where you need to be aware of where your nearest bomb shelter was?
Your grandparents didn't enjoy that experience during WW2, and your parents didn't enjoy the terror campaign of the Provos in British cities in the 70s and 80s.

The actions of the IDF are going to bring peace because they will demonstrate to Hamas that it can't win.
Hamas proceeds on the basis that this struggle is winnable, right?
If it doesn't believe the struggle is winnable then what right does it have to continue to keep it up?
Who is going to suffer more in the prosecution of an unwinnable fight, the superior force or the inferior force?

The point where Hamas and Fatah will begin to negotiate in good faith, beginning with recognition of the right of Israel to exist (i.e. the Zionist claim) is the point where they recognise that continued struggle is futile because of
(1) overwhelmingly superior Israeli military force
and
(2) alienation of their normal ME allies.

So maybe some time soon? We can only wait in hope, no?

Of course if ISIS goes from strength to strength, the hopes of Hamas that victory will be theirs will only be bolstered, so it may be a while.

Springheeled · 25/07/2014 18:45

The war is clearly NOT devastating on both sides. It is also not a war of equals. Devastation is what is happening in Gaza. While life in parts of Israel may be at times frightening and alarming, Israeli families are not suffering devastation. You cannot equate the two.
Seeing it as defending the indefensible is not a matter of perspective- there is NO defence for the actions of the IDF this week and that is a fact not a perspective.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 18:49

Or is it possible that by 'peace' you mean a situation where Hamas can lob rockets into Israel with impunity?

wannabestressfree · 25/07/2014 18:50

Why do people not see beyond these events and at the devastation Hamas has caused?

It's like poking a bear. Eventually you get an angry response.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 18:53

Exactly, Springheeled, the war is not devastating both sides. I have not claimed that. I have stated the opposite.

Maybe it is therefore time for Hamas to examine whether the struggle is worth it?
Maybe it is time for them to examine how many casualties they are willing to absorb before calling it quits?
Or maybe it is time for them to examine the idea that bomb shelters are irrelevant?

PigletJohn · 25/07/2014 19:03

"The actions of the IDF are going to bring peace because they will demonstrate to Hamas that it can't win."

It didn't work last time, or the time before, or the time before that.

If reducing Gaza to rubble, killing and maiming large numbers of the population, preventing economic growth, obstructing the payment of public servants and destroying the infrastructure with the long-term blockade does not make the people of Gaza become friendly, what will Israel try next? The same thing?

timbucktoo · 25/07/2014 19:06

Maybe its time for Israel to stop. I dont think that will happen anytime soon

Israel's security cabinet has rejected a Gaza ceasefire proposal put forward by US Secretary of State John Kerry, officials say.

GoshAnneGorilla · 25/07/2014 19:09

Math - I will not "wind my neck in". Your post was disengenous and you know it.

You sound like an Apartheid era white South African. They thought they had an inalienable right to their own state too, regardless of the people who were already living there.

They lost.

The Israelis will too.

The US won't fund them forever and the tide of public opinion is turning.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 19:23

By one definition the concept of one whose merit surpasses his iniquity Laptop, or to extrapolate, the concept of goodness and badness simultaneously coexisting in each person, and further, the idea that even in something bad good is possible, and even in something good, evil is possible.

Fundamental to the concept is the notion that nobody is either all good or all evil. Those who see Israel and Zionism as the root of all evil and the cause of conflict which alone can end it have failed to grasp the idea of tzedek or its cognate 'sadiq'. In other words, people who would post a statement like this:
'Those WITH A CONSCIENCE.
Put a name and a story on the spin and the good men stand out.'

An individual with a clear understanding of the concept of tzedek would support the right of Israel to defend itself and would not expect Israel to be held to higher standards of moral purity than other states fighting terrorism.

Because Jews are not different from other people, and Zionism only claims for Jews what (for example) Republicanism equally claimed for Irish people.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 19:30

My post was not one bit disingenuous. When I post here and engage in discussion I expect other posters to be well informed. Well informed means understanding that Hezbollah is an Islamist extremist group set up by Ayatollah Khomeini and supported heavily by Iran, that seeks to install an Islamist state in Lebanon, the home of both Christian and Muslims of all stripes. Do you find the prospect of Islamists ruling Lebanon appealing?

Do you deny that Hezbollah was allied with Iran in 2006, and that it fired rockets into Haifa?

Do you deny that the UN certified that Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in 2000 and that Hezbollah initiated hostilities by firing on Israel?

topbanana1 · 25/07/2014 19:31

Laptopwieldingharpy -

You said:

"Topbanana1, i met Dr Abulaish in Asia. He raised half a million dollars in 3 hours for his foundation in 3 hours. A good proportion of the donors were American jews. Those WITH A CONSCIENCE.
Put a name and a story on the spin and the good men stand out. "

I actually have no idea at all what your point was. Can you please enlighten me?

Were you trying to imply that in some way I was trying to hide his identity? - on the contrary, that's why I put a link.

That the only people in the world with a conscience are those who give money to this foundation?

That American Jews have more of a conscience than...? who?

I really haven't got the foggiest what you're driving at.

Dr Abulaish sounds like an amazing man, who has used his devastating personal experiences to try to ensure no-one else has to suffer as he has suffered.

Are you seriously suggesting you disagree with what he says? That you know better than he does? Confused

topbanana1 · 25/07/2014 19:36

GoshAnne -

"You sound like an Apartheid era white South African. They thought they had an inalienable right to their own state too, regardless of the people who were already living there. "

Ah, you mean like those bloody apatheid Poles. Disgusting isn't it.

I shall get my rockets out right this minute. How dare they think they have a right to my ancestral home in Prussia. Angry

I hope you shall join my boycott of all things Polish tomorrow. And look forward to seeing you on the march.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 19:38

GoshAnne:
Blowing straight past the pathetic smear that you uses when facts didn't support your silly points...

Do you support the right of Britain to defend against terror attacks by Islamists?

Do other groups have some sort of right to have a go at Britain, or does Britain have an inalienable right to its own state, with the associated right to defend it?

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 19:46

Won't you march with me in Londonderry next month, GoshAnne?
Or should that be Derry?

Watch out, that is perhaps a disingenuous question.

PigletJohn · 25/07/2014 19:57

GoshAnne

An interesting question to ponder, looking back into the recent past, say, since 1970. I will give myself the luxury of ignoring all history prior to 1970, and any rights that people might have had before then.

When the UK was under attack from various IRA factions, would it have been better for the Royal Navy to blockage the Republic of Ireland, on the grounds that it was harbouring these people, and the RAF to bomb Irish towns, cities, villages and sewage works in order to teach the IRA that they couldn't win?

Would it have been better for the UK to build a large wall and put all the Catholics behind it, and to seize the land of Catholic farmers within Northern Ireland, and to distribute it to Protestants? Would it have been better for the British Army to invade and occupy large swathes of the Republic, and to place illegal settlements in the Occupied Territories, taking care to ensure that the settlers had access to far more water and other resources, and the best land, and, shall we say, blowing up wells and reservoirs used by the farms, villages and homes of the indigenous people?

If the UK had done that, do you suppose the UK would have suffered unpopularity among the citizens of the world? What if the RAF had bombed homes, schools and hospitals in, say Dublin, describing them as "surgical strikes" and expressing regret that the majority of people killed and maimed were not IRA men, but innocent citizens?

Now, to my mind, that would have been wicked and inhumane, and pretty well unthinkable, but do you suppose it could be argued that the UK was forced to behave in this way to defend itself against terrorism? Do you suppose it would have led to a peaceful co-existence and to power sharing?

GoshAnneGorilla · 25/07/2014 20:13

In Britain, Islamic terrorism is a crime and is dealt with by the police. Thus anyone suspected of Islamic terror offences is arrested and questioned, evidence is gathered. If the case meets the threshold for prosecution, then the suspected are tried, if found guilty, they are imprisoned.

As far as I'm aware, the UK police does not start aerially bombarding Birmingham.

It's odd you keep claiming to be some die-hard Irish Republican Math, as Irish Republicans of all persuasions tend to be very pro-Palestinian.

Topbanna - no, you cannot compare Palestine to Poland when Palestine has been continously settled by Arabs.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 20:20

I forgot, aerial bombing is the key.

And I also forgot that aerial bombing does not include the firing of airborne rockets into civilian centres.

Surely terrorism is a political act and therefore can't be prosecuted as a crime or terror dealt with as a matter of policing?
Or is terrorism murder like any other murder?

And where have I claimed to be a diehard Republican?

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 20:33

GoshAnne,

There is no need to think too hard about the question of whether Britain should have blockaded, pillaged, shelled cities from gunboats, etc in Ireland. All of that was done in the name of fighting terror long before 1970. One PM in recent history was prepared to put her money where her mouth was in similar fashion, and she succeeded in bringing to an end the notion the PIRA had entertained up to then that their struggle was winnable. She also exposed the fallacy that the PIRA enjoyed widespread support for its military campaign among the people it claimed to represent.

In other words, the tragedy for British rule in Ireland was not that it was too harsh but that it wasn't harsh enough and the terrorists won, and the tragedy for British rule in Palestine was exactly the same.

(The tragedy for Palestinians was that British rule in Palestine was conducted in exactly the same way British rule was conducted elsewhere; by the use of convenient lies and promises made for the sake of short term gain, exploitation of divisions in the territories ruled the better to 'divide and conquer', and intermittent displays of inadequate force.)

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 20:34

the tragedy for British rule in Ireland before 1970 ....

ThunderbumsMum · 25/07/2014 20:42

The problem with debates like this is that there are always anti Israel (and anti Jew) posters who are never going to understand the situation properly because they are unaware of the history. And without the (really quite recent) history there is no context.

to those who persist in claiming Israel is the embodiment of evil, what do you expect Israel to do? Accept huge numbers of rockets fired at it? Celebrations in Gaza each time an Israeli child is murdered? Nail bombs on Israeli school buses? How much does Israel have to take before it can fight the terrorism? Or would you only accept the dissolution of the state of Israel? In which case, it is fairly pointless you engaging in this thread at all.

GoshAnneGorilla · 25/07/2014 20:48

Math - I'm not your servant, if I don't respond it's because I'm doing something else, not because I'm overawed by your convoluted whataboutery.

You keep using Empire-era Britain's actions to suppory what Israel is doing now. It's akin to justifying modern racism by comparing it with the slave trade.

Maggie Thatcher did not do to the Irish what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians, not even close. And no, the Hunger Strikers does not compare to the mass slaughter of civilians, which is occurring in Gaza, right now.

mathanxiety · 25/07/2014 20:49

ThunderbumsMum, those who think Israel should turn the other cheek and stick flowers in the mouths of Grad rocket launchers want to see Jews as meek victims. They do not accord to Israel the right to staunch defence because staunch defenders of Israel are not meek Jews, and are clearly seeking to be in a position where they will never again be anybody's victim. Jews who stand up for the right of their state to exist are not acceptable Jewish types.

ThunderbumsMum · 25/07/2014 20:51

mathanxiety that is interesting! I hadn't thought about it like that before.

Poppet1974 · 25/07/2014 20:57

The hunger strike in Ireland only served to make more people eager to join the IRA. Thatcher and Paisley were the best recruiting sergeants the IRA ever had.
Killing and oppressing people never wins the day, as Israel will find out to her cost.