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Politics

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Just been on a course about new benefit system

540 replies

buggyRunner · 08/07/2012 21:33

Christ it's a big shake up.

I say this as someone who won't be personally affected- it is harsh.

Basically if you claim any benefits other than child benefit you're probably going to have a loss.

OP posts:
NicholasTeakozy · 12/07/2012 16:50

Duggan was armed.

Righto. A gun was found about 10 feet from the minicab. Inside a box. Mark Duggan's fingerprints were not on it, nor his DNA, so there is more than a little doubt as to whether he was armed. BBC linky

Will that do?

Dawndonna · 12/07/2012 16:54

Sorry Nicholas
Did check,but got it wrong. Everything else I said still stands.

NicholasTeakozy · 12/07/2012 17:41

My reply wasn't to you Dawndonna, 'twas to Flatpack. Like yourself, I try to back up my points with proof. Anyhow, I agree with the rest of your post.

Dawndonna · 12/07/2012 17:50

Thank you!

YoYoYoItsTillyMinto · 12/07/2012 18:15

the police do shoot unarmed people. i heard this shooting of my neighbour & was interviewed as part of the investigation: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Stanley

over the years many unarmed people have been shot/died in police custody in strange circumstances.

but it was only the recent Tottenham shooting that triggered looting. i thought the man's family/pastor asked for calm.

so why the looting? Oh NT - so was there looting near you?

Dawndonna · 12/07/2012 19:25

The same reason there were poll tax riots in the 80s. The Brixton riots, the Toxteth riots and other riots since time immemorial, people have become disenfranchised, sometimes it's the only way to demonstrate dissatisfaction with a regime that appears to offer no solutions and disempowers peope by removing hope, chances etc. Which successive governments of all hues have done. There are very few places for people to go now, fewer jobs, little chance of affordable housing, social or otherwise. If you remove hope and replace it with fear, you reap the consequences.

AmberLeaf · 12/07/2012 19:26

I don't live in Tottenham but there was rioting and looting very near to my home.

The shooting of an unarmed man and the subsequent lies from police sparked it off. Some of the people that joined in on following days were those who feel very much disenfranchised from society.

Many though were not in any way poor or disenfranchised. But they still went out and stole (but easier to focus on the poorer/black kids)

My teenage (black) son was out when I heard it was happening in our area so I called him on his phone to come home, he was about to board a bus right into it as he was running an errand for me.

He came straight home where he stayed all night despite coming from an 'entitled' benefit scum home but that's because he's been raised with morals like many families in my position.

2old2beamum · 14/07/2012 14:26

Well said Amberleaf we are so quick to blame black kids and benefit scroungers for the ills of this country

flatpackhamster · 14/07/2012 17:50

Righto. A gun was found about 10 feet from the minicab. Inside a box. Mark Duggan's fingerprints were not on it, nor his DNA, so there is more than a little doubt as to whether he was armed.

Will that do?

His fingerprints were on the box. He was arrested on suspicion of 'planning an attack'. So his prints and DNA wouldn't be on the gun, or the sock it was wrapped in while it was in the box, because he hadn't used the gun yet. But his prints were on the box, which is where you'd expect them to be.

So no, it won't 'do'.

Dahlen

BTW flatpack, just because someone finds something empowering, doesn't mean it is.

Yes, I bet they don't know what's empowering. Maybe they need someone to run an awareness campaign so that they're quite clear about how wrong they are to see the world they way they do.

NicholasTeakozy · 14/07/2012 18:28

He wasn't arrested. He was shot instead.

AmberLeaf · 14/07/2012 18:32

Waves at 2old Smile

Yes he wasn't arrested dur!

Remember how it was at the time? Lie after lie. They knew full well he hadn't shot that policeman because he never held a gun at any point yet the story was they shot him dead after he shot a policeman.

crazynanna · 14/07/2012 18:36

The whole Mark Duggan affair was one big fuck up from beginning to end...and it is time the IPCC actually admitted that so the family can move on.

YoYoYoItsTillyMinto · 15/07/2012 11:40

We do need to investigate police shootings thoroughly but MDs family were heavily involved in crime (read about his uncle in Manchester).

I have much more sympathy for everyone who suffered from the rioting and looting.

AmberLeaf · 15/07/2012 11:59

His maternal uncle was a criminal. How does that make mark duggan deserving of no sympathy for being shot dead by police? Or his family?

You have more sympathy for people affected by rioting than the family of someone who was killed? Why? Because his uncle was a criminal?

YoYoYoItsTillyMinto · 15/07/2012 12:17

Yes. Of course he should not have been shot but I have limited sympathy for his family.

The police aledge he was a gang founder. DP runs a primary school where children as young as 9 joins gangs. an ex pupil murdered someone when he was 15. so yes I have less sympathy for people and families involved in gangs.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 15/07/2012 12:50

You ave limited sympathy for his family
Are you serious?
A mother has her so shot dead in the street but you have limited sympathy because he wasn't a nice enough person?

Note you say alleged.

Are you suggesting his mother, grandmother etc were involved in gangs too? Is that why you feel their loss of a child is less worthy?

That sort of attitude is what forces grieving families of black and mixed race boys to have to deny any gang connections to the press.
Their chid is slaughtered and the first thing they have to do is to confirm to the waiting public that their child's death is a tragedy because he was a good boy.

My son's friend was murdered. Forced under a fucking bus. His family had to make sure the world knew he wasn't in a gang.
For 2 reasons.
He was black and he lived in east London.

Shame.

YoYoYoItsTillyMinto · 15/07/2012 13:01

Its obviously wrong when someone is assumed to be a gang member because they are black. Its why the Stephen Lawrence investigation was such a shambles.

but yes i have limited sympathy for his family. Dp deals with the parents of children who join gangs when at primary school and they are part of the problem/ the problem.

AmberLeaf · 15/07/2012 13:05

Your DP runs a school? You mean he is a head teacher?

I'm pretty sure mark duggan didn't even have a criminal record. But because of the shit the police put out there to influence idiots who see a black man and think the worst you think his family don't deserve any sympathy.

Shame on you.

Yes to what mrsDevere says. If a black or mixed race boy is killed their grieving family has the added worry of people just seeing a dead black boy and assuming the rest.

AmberLeaf · 15/07/2012 13:06

Its why the Stephen Lawrence investigation was such a shambles

No its one very small reason why it was a shambles actually. The main reason was police corruption.

YoYoYoItsTillyMinto · 15/07/2012 13:13

Al, so what do you think the police were doing with md?

AmberLeaf · 15/07/2012 13:16

I know what they were doing with him. Do you?

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 15/07/2012 13:18

Bollocks.
YOU have no idea.
Your husband is a headmaster of a primary school.
That does not mske you an expert on the lives of black youths in the city.
I have four black boys and the moment they achieve any independence they are subject to horrendous pressure from outside influences. I can do all I can, like the families o the majority of kids round here. But I cannot guarantee that none of my boys will be involved in gang activity. I can hope and pray he don't.
You cannot possibly understand
Because if you did, you wouldn't be saying the things you are
And your DP shouldn't be talking to his wife about confidential matters. If he thinks the issue is as simple as he is telling you, he shouldn't be in the job.

I have lost a child. A beautiful innocent child. When I see the faces of the parents who have lost their 'bad' boys I see the same grief, the same agony as I feel.

I feel nothing horror at th loss of yet another young life. Echo are you to say that a year down the line that young boy might have found his feet and got himself together?

You know who caused me the most trouble? The spoilt, entitled, indulged and bounderyless middle class kids who my ds fell in with.

There was us trying to kep him safe and their parent's laid back attitude to drinking, drugs and under age sex made our job as hard as hell.
Difference was those kids had parents who could whisk tem away when things got hot, pay for abortions, send them out of the area, bail them out etc.

But who gets the blame for the world's ills?
Mothers of black boys.

OhDoAdmitMrsDeVere · 15/07/2012 13:21

That man got shot 5 mins from where I am sitting now.
I pass that spot 2-3 times a week.

I didn't sit slack jawed and tittilated when it ll kicked off.
I despaired for the future of my kids.
Does your middle aged husband get pulled over regularly by the police on his way home from work?

YoYoYoItsTillyMinto · 15/07/2012 13:27

This is a very odd conversation. Dps family are anglo Indian so experience racism themselves. He deals with lots of parents who hinder their own dcs chances. You can pretend its otherwise if it fits your own narratives....

AmberLeaf · 15/07/2012 13:42

Yes its odd because you are bullshitting your way through it.