Time for a shake-up in the Benefit System

[mamaonthemoor]

We've just had a conversation with an unemployed eighteen year old couple that has made us feel like mugs. They have never worked a day in their lives, went straight from school to the dole. They get everything paid for i.e rent, council tax, plus weekly money for food etc. They are getting help towards their other bills such as electricity and have just received a grant that they don't have to repay for furniture in their new accomodation. My husband and myself work and pay our taxes, we have five children the eldest is working but still living at home, one at college, 2 at school and a baby. We own our home. If this couple were to go and get a job they would be five hundred pounds a month worse off,they said to us why should they work and it's true. I tried to say for your own self respect, so that you can do the things in life that you want to and so that the likes of us are not paying to keep you but really when you look at it what incentive do they have?They get up late, spend the day on xbox and tv, then pub in the evening, it seems this is enough for them, a habit easily slipped into. They will of course in time advance themselves the only way they can by having children so that they will be provided with a bigger house and more money. It makes me sick though that this is possible. It's about time the government put a stop to all of this. Everybody occassionally needs a little help along the way but this current situation if ridiculous, I'm not talking about the disabled benefits of course but the government keep threating this great shake up in the system, it seems that it's actually only really affecting the people that actually need the help. People that are losing benefits they need such as the disabled, the sick and elderly and not these abled bodied people that should be earning their own livings.

"3 million jobs have gone to foreigners!"

and how is that classified? Does that include the foreign doctors, nurses, teachers, phramacy managers etc?

Or are they all cleaners/construction workers "someone not born in the UK"? How many of the jobs those 3 million have taken are seasonal/temporary/only a couple of hours a week type jobs that actually take no matter how badly they'd like to work as they'll ended up totally screwed financially.

OR maybe they're the ones taking the jobs where the employers exploit their workers, by not actually paying the minimum wage - they get away with it by making them "self employed" workers, or making the OTE minimum wage, but in reality they'll never/rarely get that much.

Or perhaps, as they usually come with no dependants, they're the ones working the unsociable hours with no childcare worries.

BAC. Yes many have gone to those on minimum, wage and the reason the wage is so low, is that some foreign people are willing to take low wages, and employers exploit this. Perhaps companies should pay decent living wage and then the country would not rely so heavily on foreign workers, but would end up employing the British worker.

The above has been said many, many times.

I see you haven't made any reference to the season workers, the temporary jobs, the under 16hr a week jobs, the exploitation jobs (I'm NOT talking about the minimum wage - I'm talking about those that claim to "meet national minimum wage" - but when you look closely that's ONLY if you meet pretty tough sales targets, or you're expected to work on a self employed basis, so that when you do't make anything like minimum wage they can hold their hands up and say "well they're self employed".

\link{http://jobseekers.direct.gov.uk/detailjob.aspx?sessionid=a857a25a-236e-435f-a8c7-c3aa8c8b5aca&pid=4&j=WLG/15702\ones like this}

And what is the classification of a "foreign worker" - as there are many stilled immigrants working in jobs that pay well above minimum wage.

You could raise the national minimum wage to £10hr and someone with children still wouldn't be able to take a 12-15hr a week cleaning/caring/whatever job.

'There will always be liars and freeloaders', said Berie Botts.

Exactly. You see them at all levels in society, including on the boards of bankrupt banks. Or dossing at work but taking the annual increment anyway.

Human nature to take what you can get. Why do people castigate the poor for not exhibiting a higher level of nobility then they themselves show?

Benefit scroungers are not an argument for doing away with benefits. I'd rather have a few scroungers than needy people unable to access help. It's the price we pay for civilization.

going to leave this thread - have just read that our local council can't guarantee that their 100 job cuts that are proposed won't meen losing holiday schemes - that some of us on benefits were hoping to rely on to be able to get off benefits.

Not in the mood for work/benefit talk with the prospect of the council funded holiday schemes folding.

Sorry to hear that Baroque.

It's, er, somehow your fault that there are redundancies at the council.

oh probably wukter

utterly depressing to think that we could lose the very few holiday schemes we have in the town. Especially as they're pushing for people "like me" to get back to work.

CBA with benefits/working threads right now as quite frankly the thought of not having childcare for the holidays scares me shitless

"Benefit scroungers are not an argument for doing away with benefits. I'd rather have a few scroungers than needy people unable to access help. It's the price we pay for civilisation".

Wukter - if it was only the monetary cost of the benefit payments I would agree. But the cost, of allowing and enabling healthy people to spend extended periods unemployed and not contributing to society, is so much more.

There's the cost to their dc's education and employment outcomes. As well as their own mental and physical health - both of which are worse for people on long term benefits. And the overall 'cost' of an 'underclass' whose behavioural norms are diverging from the rest of society.

I fear your definition of civilised might actually be pretty cruel.

Eh Jackstarb? Crueller than a Victorian workhouse?

So what do the Tories do? make 1000s of people redundant ...so that will help then

Benefit scroungers are not an argument for doing away with benefits. I'd rather have a few scroungers than needy people unable to access help. It's the price we pay for civilization.

This is why we need a citizens wage, if everyone was paid £200 a week no matter what but that is all you are getting there would be massive incentives to work harder and better yourself without the danger of people starving if they can't be bothered or more to the point your parents can't be bothered.

It's funny, I met 2 people today who had had all their benefits taken off them for 6 months. That is everything. All housing benefit, jsa, ib, tax credits, whatever else.

What for? Not trying to find jobs and no showing at interviews / training / advisor meetings.

Funny we never hear about those stories.

It's funny, I met 2 people today who had had all their benefits taken off them for 6 months. That is everything. All housing benefit, jsa, ib, tax credits, whatever else.

They are lying if they are telling you they've lost everything for not looking for a job, suspected fraud more like.

Its true LadyBlaBlah...do people really think that you don't have to do training courses,go to interviews,meetings etc when you are unemployed?

Well if all they had to do to meet all their living costs was to go to some interviews.. sorry but most people have to work for that. Doesn't seem like much to ask really.

"Benefit scroungers are not an argument for doing away with benefits."

Ain't that the truth. But they're an argument for doing something about "benefit scroungers", not a phrase I'd use but there we are.

They would lose JSA if they weren't attending interviews or actively seeking work but you'd not lose the HB or tax credits because you'd only get tax credits if you had children, so there is no way anyone would be left without the means to feed and keep the roof over their child's head for not actively seeking work.
They are lying to you or you have the wrong end of the stick.

Yes, immediate reaction is that these people must be lying.

To be clear, sanctions can be for administrative failure (such as failing to complete required paperwork or attend a meeting), or from a behavioural ?misdemeanour? (for example, not ?actively looking? for work, or refusing employment).

There are stages of sanctions - 2 weeks stopped, 4 weeks, onto months of stopped benefits

Ignorant posts like the OP think it is a life of riley on the dole. The system is harder than many could imagine.

Have you checked this out mamatomany somewhere other than the dm?

some more information here

It is not just a Tory thing this - Labour did this too. The system is brutal.

I used to work for an organisation advising people on how to claim the right benefits for their circumstances Lady so I am very aware what can and can't be done and who would be sanctioned in such a way and it would not be anyone in receipt of tax credits for sure.
As for not turning up to interviews, meetings and training they would have to have literally ignored all requests including reminder phone calls the day before so frankly what more can be done for that person ?

Youth and longterm unemployment are really difficult to deal with and rants similar to the OPs aren't constructive. Although I think with sanctions on benefits for non-compliance with the obligations that are attached, I do think that the unemployed need more assistance in getting back to work.

The point is mamatomany that the system does not and never has allowed for people "who take the piss". You can lose both JSA and HB.

What more can be done? Yes, quite starve 'em

The OP is only stating what millions of others think. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether we agree or not. It is better to discuss the issues openly rather than sweeping them under the carpet and issuing disapproving biscuits.

It's sad that so many people think like that because it is very misinformed.

Employers have to play their part in trapping people where they are, as do we all. One thing that would make a huge difference to lt unemployed people would be to start lifting the stereotypes about people who have been unemployed for so long. Second chance schemes would be magical for people with gaps in their CVs who most employers will not give a second glance. Did you know that most agencies will not take on anyone who does not have a work reference for the last 6 months? And bear in mind that more and more lower level jobs are on temporary contracts only /agency only e.g. Asda, then a lot of suitable jobs are wiped out for many of the LT unemployed people.

But we all have a part to play, and if you hold an opinion that LT unemployed people are lazy and feckless, you are not likely to employ one should you be in such a position - you probably wouldn't even interview them. And quickly you can start to see how there is a vicious circle going on. People lose their confidence and stop applying wholeheartedly eventually anyway - and who's to blame them?