Time for a shake-up in the Benefit System

[mamaonthemoor]

We've just had a conversation with an unemployed eighteen year old couple that has made us feel like mugs. They have never worked a day in their lives, went straight from school to the dole. They get everything paid for i.e rent, council tax, plus weekly money for food etc. They are getting help towards their other bills such as electricity and have just received a grant that they don't have to repay for furniture in their new accomodation. My husband and myself work and pay our taxes, we have five children the eldest is working but still living at home, one at college, 2 at school and a baby. We own our home. If this couple were to go and get a job they would be five hundred pounds a month worse off,they said to us why should they work and it's true. I tried to say for your own self respect, so that you can do the things in life that you want to and so that the likes of us are not paying to keep you but really when you look at it what incentive do they have?They get up late, spend the day on xbox and tv, then pub in the evening, it seems this is enough for them, a habit easily slipped into. They will of course in time advance themselves the only way they can by having children so that they will be provided with a bigger house and more money. It makes me sick though that this is possible. It's about time the government put a stop to all of this. Everybody occassionally needs a little help along the way but this current situation if ridiculous, I'm not talking about the disabled benefits of course but the government keep threating this great shake up in the system, it seems that it's actually only really affecting the people that actually need the help. People that are losing benefits they need such as the disabled, the sick and elderly and not these abled bodied people that should be earning their own livings.

agree, this gaps in the CV thing is ridiculous. I didn't know about the 6 months thing. How do some foreign immigrants gain employment without all of these references, and yet other people can't be taken on without these references?

I think you are making good arguments and that helps to dispel untruths. But mamatomany also has good knowledge and also has good points. I am learning from both of your points of view. That's why I think people like the OP should say what they think and then everybody can try and discuss it rationally. That way everybody can learn and maybe change their views. It is not a black and white issue, there are shades of grey and everybody has got an angle on the truth.

I agree LadyBlaBlah that there is a large stigma around the longterm unemployed that is very unhelpful. My dad hasn't worked for a prolonged period of time for 18 years so the chances of him finding work are next to zero.

The truth I see is that people are in a position they don't want to be in. They have horrific confidence, self esteem and motivational problems from various sources - but being part of a social group which is routinely described as scum is one of the contributing factors - but these psychological states are all in themselves barriers to getting employment. Some people's confidence is so low that when they apply for jobs they pray they won't get an interview because they don't think they can do it, they simply don't know what to do, what to say about their background, how to explain the gap, show that they are 'not one of those scrounger types'. To an outsider this may look like they don't want a job. But they couldn't want anything more, they just don't know how to get there with the state of mind and tools they have.

I defy anyone to have applied for over 600 jobs and being rejected from every single one not to feel a little bit downbeat, if not utterly destroyed. (FND clients must apply for 4 jobs a week)

I agree 100% with what you are saying. But, I have heard Duncan Smith say exactly the same thing. He knows that people find it hard to adapt to change after being unemployed for a long time. I hope he is making plans to help them adjust.

Am just on another thread where a number of posters think there is nothing wrong with having babies by different fathers extremely young and without being able to support themselves.

"What's the problem" is the attitude.

Won't link, it's not fair. But what we have arrived at is a mindset where you can do what you want without any sense that you might have to support yourself, your baby, because other people will do it.

I think this is an indicator that things have gone wrong somewhere.

'How do some foreign immigrants gain employment without all of these references, and yet other people can't be taken on without these references?'

Because they're generally going for temporary/seasonal jobs and tend to go straight to their community and get told who's hiring - and often enough, that employer only wants immigrants.

Most of my neighbours where we used to live fall into that category. Only they weren't 18 any more but had spent their lives on benefits.

It seemed to be a generation thing, their parents hadn't worked, they didn't work and they didn't see why their kids should work. When I became a single parent I was on benefits and they thought I was a fool looking for and eventually taking a job. In fact one even verbally attacked me because apparently I was acting like I was better than them because I took a job. No kidding and I was glad I moved away.

All desperately sad. But you just try and get help if you work and are then made unemployed. That is the scary part.

I started this thread as I was upset and wanted a release but didnt realise the facts.Call me niave,we both work a combination of days and nights because we have kids and don't use childcare. We have just calulated that if we moved from our housewhich we own,(pay a mortgage on) to a rented house four doors up the road, and were signing on, taking everything in to account i.e council tax which we currently pay a sizeable chunk, fuel which currently costs us at least sixty pounds a week (where if we didnt work we wouldn't even need a car) plus tax, insurance, mot's, as with most people we are worse off now working. There can be no excuse for this. We must be mugs, it's only self respect that makes us do this.It's time these people that are claiming they can't find jobs, were found jobs, even if they may not quite think these jobs are their career choice. When you are faced with a converstation like the one that sparked this initial rant and have worked solidly for 25 years it does sometimes make you wonder if it's worth it or whether you should take the attitude 'well if you can't beat 'em, you may as well join them', and take early retirement by signing on, but we won't we'll carry on like all you others out there working hard and paying our taxes.

We have just calulated that if we moved from our housewhich we own,(pay a mortgage on)

Oh don't move they'll pay your mortgage interest for 2 years too (tongue in cheek but it is true and if you do find yourself unemployed for goodness sake do not sell your house).

mamaonthemoor - I posted earlier in the thread in an exasperated manner as I am sick to death of threads on MN. Believe it or not I do understand your frustration as I see prople like the ones you describe regularly as a HV. I still believe in our benefit system though and here's why.

Some of these people have had bugger all parenting, life is hard and having a baby at 16, 17. 18 etc is not ideal but demonstrates their inbuilt belief that this is what they have to do to be "grown up". Sometimes they are from families where nobody has worked in three generations and they know no other way of life.

Add in the issues that come from their poor upbringing and you have youngsters who are not only unemployed but in some cases unemployable.

At 18 though you never know what someone will do with their life. I can think of one single parent living on benefits doing English and Maths at college and planning on going onto a course which will see him starting training as an electrician - he actively WANTS to work and I have no doubt he will. Did he see any other future than being a Dad at 18 - no he did not and to date the tax payer has funded everything. Now he is 22 his aspirations have changed and he wants to provide for his son who lives with him. I consider that the taxpayer is supporting him towards becoming a taxpayer himself (money well spent), no mean feat when I consider the crappy childhood he had.

There are already plenty of programs to help people into work out there and a Govt intent on making people attend them.

On the other hand the same Govt is also intent on making others like my friend who has a serious mental health problem (terrible agoraphobia) take Jobseeker's Allowance and not ESA - she is NOT fit for work and is having to appeal against the ATOS idiots who deemed she was!

And as for the amount people get - much of the income is based on Housing Benefit which is high due to rent. The amount also seems high because of the crappy wages most people earn in this country - does what these people get on benefits reflect the actual TRUE cost of living? I think it does.

I am working and can think of familioes who are better off on paper than me with benefits. Would I swap with them? Not for the world.

MY benefits - Tax Credit, Working Tax Credit and DLA (my son is autistic). Non-financial benefits - adult conversation with colleagues, fulfillment when I help someone (even if it's just to cuddle their non sleeping newborn while they take a shower), and the feeling of independence. I'd like all non-workers to experience the same satisfaction - the reality is that somke never will and need to be supported.

"Eh Jackstarb? Crueller than a Victorian workhouse?"

Personally - I'd prefer a benchmark somewhat higher than a Victorian Workhouse.

If we keep up the pretence that long term benefit dependency is an acceptable feature of a civilised society than we are never going to find the political will to remove it.

I agree with LadyBlahBlah's point that the long term unemployed need constructive help to get back into employment. And I think there is a role here for social entrepreneurs and charities, as well as employers (aka - the Big Society ).

But, there are people, who for a variety of reasons, see benefit dependency as a their only option. Often this is a generational and community related problem. Getting them (or at least their dc's) off benefit and into a normal wage earning life needs government action.

However, IMO, the last government did little for these people, and this government will have every effort
shouted down by Labour supporters. .

I reckon you should do it mama - give up and go on benefits

And report back on your happy life

Mama, I have been in your situation i.e having a mortgage as a single mum and rushing around trying to work, pay for child care etc etc whereas other single mums who were renting got to stay home all day with their DC's. None of us had much cash spare which felt doubly difficult with the added of pressure of getting up every morning to do a 9-5 job.

Got through it all now and I don't regret it looking back. I think my self esteem was higher and I've been a good role model for my child. Also as time went on I was in a better financial position, mortgage gets manageable as time goes on too so more money to spend on other things.

I understand why OP is upset. It is actually infuriating when people take the piss. So yes, there's definitely a case for a shake up. But how? If each individual is assessed on a case by case basis, there are going to be major discrepancies in treatment depending on the subjective opinion of the assessor. If it's standardised you will get compalints of a box ticking culture. How would you do it?

Jackstarb - Again, what's the solution? Is there a middle ground between 'lifestyle dependancy' and workhouse.

I also agree with Claig. It's important that people talk about things in a measured way. Say 90% of claimants are genuine, and 10% are scammers. We should be able to talk about a small minority without it being assumed that we are lumping everyone in together.

Then, do it, mama! Thing is, you own a house. That's an asset. So sell it, blow through the profit you make from it and then sign on and get benefits if it's so great and you are sick of being a mug.

But otherwise, going on about how much self-respect you have and everyone else should, too, smacks of bitterness.

Did you not understand I'm not saying I want to do it I'm just saying that it's not fair on those of us that do work hard to support our families when there's many out there who would rather stay at home and sponge off the likes of us. If they don't have a 'happy ' life (though I have to say the people that sparked this thread are quite happy to stay at home playing xbox and facebooking all day)then I would suggest that they make an effort to change that.

Yes they should make an effort to change that mama and hopefully they will have to at some point. Depends what their background is though and how much thought and hope they have for their future - it might be little hope or none at all.

'Did you not understand I'm not saying I want to do it I'm just saying that it's not fair on those of us that do work hard to support our families when there's many out there who would rather stay at home and sponge off the likes of us.'

Newsflash: life isn't fair! You want to talk about sponges how about the Fred Goodwins and Phil Greens of the this world. They're legally sponging, too, to the tune of tens of millions of taxpayer monies.

That's life! It's not fair.

So if you can't lick 'em, join 'em.

You have a house you own. Flog it, burn through the profit, then sign on.

Go for it.

The OP won't do that expat because as those of us who have had to sign on at one time or the other know - it's not that great. Life is definitely NOT greener that side.

So they sit at home FBing and gaming - what a sad and empty life. Is that what any of us would want for ourselves or our children? No.

I would more hope that their lives will not always be this empty and thank heavens for a job and a roof over my head (although in my case a HA home and not my own - but still a benefit of a kind).

mama makes a good point.

A redistributive society only works if those that contribute do so (reasonably) willingly, and those that receive have some appreciation of what others are doing for them.

(Although, obviously, most people will both contribute and receive at different stages of their life.)

But if the contributors feel they are being treated unfairly then the system breaks down.

Wukter - A solution starts with acknowledging the is a problem.

X posted with Expat - you ilustrate my point perfectly. Thanks (smile).