How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

[ivanhoe]

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions.

Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice.

So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss.

But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years.

Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts.

Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

God help our people. It makes depressing reading. But the bubbly will be flowing when the Christmas bonuses are announced soon.

//////some info on our winter mortality rates

'The simple fact that the UK has one of the highest winter mortality rates in Europe ? higher than even Sweden or Finland ? makes it clear this is very much a home-grown problem. These are avoidable deaths due not just to the cold weather in itself but to the country?s inability to meet the challenge of dropping temperatures. Behind these shocking statistics lie deep-seated social issues, such as 3.5 million older people in fuel poverty (1) and one in three over-60s living in houses which fail the decent-home standard (2).//////

Brilliant.

Anybody who believes otherwise is an arrogant naive fool.

Fucking hell they are using a scan of a printed document to present data on their website. Whoever did that should be shot in the face.

Anyway - If this is what you are referring to: -

State Pension (Basic and Second) as a proportion of average working pay.

Greece 95.7%
Luxemobourg 88.3%
Netherlands 81.9%
Spain 81.2%
Denmark 79.8%
Italy 67.9%
Sweden 62.1%
Average Eu 60%
France 51.2%
Germany 39.9%
Estonia 32.9%
Ireland 32.5%
Uk 30.8%

This doesn't show that our pensioners are the worst off in the EU.

1. It doesn't include all EU countries
2. It only shows income from state pensions
3. It only tells you how the pension relates to average earnings. It doesn't tell you how well off this makes you.

According to this www.pensionreforms.com/Preview.aspx?289

Spain and Greece have pensioner poverty levels of 32 and 31% - considerably higher than ours.

Yeah, so you're saying we are doing great?

"These are avoidable deaths due not just to the cold weather in itself but to the country?s inability to meet the challenge of dropping temperatures. "

This is an oversimplified analysis though. Last years winter mortality was DOWN 30% from the year before despite being colder. This was due to a decrease in the rate of influenza infections.

The Greeks were retiring at 52. That's why they rioted when their givernment started cutting their benefits.

/////God help our people. It makes depressing reading. But the bubbly will be flowing when the Christmas bonuses are announced soon./////

claig, I dont know you you are, or what sex you are, or where you live, ???, but I just want to say you have brought a breath of "fresh" air to my posting.

So thanks for that.

No I'm saying those figures don't tell you anything about how we are doing on their own.

///////"These are avoidable deaths due not just to the cold weather in itself but to the country?s inability to meet the challenge of dropping temperatures. "

This is an oversimplified analysis though. Last years winter mortality was DOWN 30% from the year before despite being colder. This was due to a decrease in the rate of influenza infections.////////

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

The Greeks where also not playing their taxes, and understating their incomes which is one thing that will have skewed those figures.

/////Yeah, so you're saying we are doing great?/////

He / she is trying to justify pensioners suffering untimely deaths in this country due to the cold.

Ivanhoe - what Claig has done is actually go and get some sources to support what she is saying. I meant, she has failed to apply any critical analysis to them and is only picking things that support whatever her argument is just now, but you've failed even to go that.

WORSE than Claig....

/shakes head.

"ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ"

I'm sorry if I'm boring you with 'facts' and 'analysis'.

Here's the beloved Guardian telling us that our pensioners are among the worst off in Europe. Surely no one can challenge that oracle of truth?

'Reform of the pensions and benefits system is urgently needed to tackle pensioner poverty in the UK, which is among the worst in Europe, campaigners said today.

The call for action came after European commission statistics showed that 30% of over-65s in the UK were living on incomes far below the national average. That was the fourth highest level in Europe, according to the figures, with pensioners in Romania, where 19% fell below the poverty threshold, among those faring better than in the UK.

Only pensioners in Cyprus (51%), Latvia (33%), and Estonia (33%) came out worse. The EU average was 19%.'

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jul/27/pensioner-poverty

"He / she is trying to justify pensioners suffering untimely deaths in this country due to the cold."

No. I'm saying that the those figures on Pensions relative to average income by country tell us nothing about how well pensioners in different countries are doing.

ivanhoe, well done for raising the issue. I'm no expert on it, I don't understand all these facts and figures, I am just trying to dig out some info since everyone was saying how well off our pensioners are. the more I find out about it, the worse it gets.

Absolutely everyone on this thread has said that pensioner poverty is a huge problem and needs to be addressed. The dissagremnet has been about methods and priorities. I'm not sure what other countries are paying their pensioners contributes to that.

I haven't read the whole thread, but everytime I dipped in, people were saying that our elderly were well off, their house prices had increased, they could downsize, their heating allowances were adequate etc.

'I'm not sure what other countries are paying their pensioners contributes to that.'

I think it is indicative of how they treat and value their elderly. I think our people should expect the same.

///// people were saying that our elderly were well off, their house prices had increased, they could downsize, their heating allowances were adequate etc./////

This is because people are shallow, and because they are thick.

Please read the whole posting.

i haven't said pensioner poverty is a huge problem. it isn't with any pensioner i know. my retired neighbours are much better off than we will ever be. my mother is very comfortable and has loads of spare cash. my ILs who are on the pension top-ups because their income is so low give money away periodically to their working children because they have too much otherwise. and they have holidays, a car etc etc

my children, on the other hand will struggle to ever buy property, and will leave college with debts in excess of 50k.

so where should my simpathy lay i wonder?

/.//////Absolutely everyone on this thread has said that pensioner poverty is a huge problem and needs to be addressed. The dissagremnet has been about methods and priorities. I'm not sure what other countries are paying their pensioners contributes to that.//////

Well why we are debating, millions of old people are suffering, and they are dying.

Who cares what other countries are doing. ????????

So if other countries didn't pay pensions at all we should do the same?

ivanhoe - you can call me shallow, but not thick. i have a degree

ivanhoe - unfortunately one of the things about being human is that eventually you die and i think statistics show that this is more likely to happen when you are old

Ivanhoe - "Who cares what other countries are doing. ????????"

Well we can agree on that at least.

"Well why we are debating, millions of old people are suffering, and they are dying."

The problem is, so are lots of other people.