How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

[ivanhoe]

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions.

Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice.

So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss.

But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years.

Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts.

Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

Ivanhoe - I think the earnings link has been restored. I've not got time to check but I'm sure it's easily verified.

like shooting fish in a barrel, or taking taxpayers' money and bailing out bankers

////Ivanhoe - I think the earnings link has been restored. I've not got time to check but I'm sure it's easily verified.////

The earnings link cut by Thatcher in 1980, was not restored by Blair or Brown, and the coalition are supposed to be restoring the earnings link next April, but only via Pensions Credit.

and reading the rest of your last post - there isn't a "surplus" of NI. NI is a tax - the money raised goes into the general pot to be spent with all other tax revenues on everything the government spends on.

So whilst there's enough money to give all pensioners more, that's only possible by spending less on other things like health or education for example. There's no spare money - if there was we wouldn't have a budget deficit.

You are perfectly entitled to believe that the government's priorities are wrong - but please accept that not everyone will share yours either.

And however nice it would be to believe that "fat cats" are the root of all evil that also seems a bit simplistic to me.

//////like shooting fish in a barrel, or taking taxpayers' money and bailing out bankers////////////

Socialism bailing out Capitalism.

The banks were first deregulated under Thatcher, this was part of her free market get rich quick ethos that served the rich so well, and which New Labour continued.

well if the earnings link is being restored next April isn't that something to be pleased about? you have succeeded in getting one of your objectives met. And appreciating what's been done might get you more success with some of your other aims - ingratitude is not attractive.

///there isn't a "surplus" of NI. ////

There is, around £50 billion, but it's being used for other things.

/////and many people will say anyone who doesn't is a scrounger/////

Yes and those "people" will be acting like Nazi's, picking on the Jews.

Ivanhoe - Can you give a link to a source for the surplus? I find it hare to believe that NI payments can pay for the entire benefits system and the NHS and have 50 billion left over!

MrsWobble, I am using fat cats for the rich and powerful, not just the latest beneficiaries of public largesse. Of course, the rich are screwing us, and the politicians, including Brown, carry it out.

Agree ivanhoe. They used socialism to bail out the banks (the capitalists). Brown and Obama did it, so that naive socialists would go along with it. In fact, it is the rightwing Tea Party that are opposed to teh bank bailout. They even laughingly ask "is this teh end of capitalism?", which gets teh naive socialists jumping with glee, so that they get easily fooled again.

There's a very severe shortage of money thats why we have a structural deficit of £160 billion and why the government is going to have to make severe cuts.

There is no surplus of NI

09/10 planned exepnditure

08 income

Sorry they aren't for the same year etc, this is all I can find quickly.

National Insurance raises about £105 Billion.

£190 Billion is spent on Social Protection - which includes pensions, Unemployment benefit and most of the thing that are part of the Welfare state except education and health.

£29 billion on personal Social Services

£88 Billion on education

£119 Billion on Health.

However you define what you think NI is meant to be spent on it's hard to see how there is a surplus.

/////There's a very severe shortage of money///

Rubbish.

If the shortage of money is so severe, why did they choose to increase foreign aid, when countries like the US have cut it?

orator - I think the OP's contention is that if NI was only spent on [some defintion of what NI id for] that there would be £50 Billion left over but that this is being spent elsewhere. So the deficit doesn't make a difference to the point.

I still don't see any surplus though.

Ivanhoe - Please can you show where you think the surplus is?

this seems to have something to do with what ivanhoe is saying

www.southwark.tv/spag/spagNIFund.asp

That IS interesting. But as it's only an accumulation of capital and not a surplus of income, if we spent it (which may or may not be a good idea) on pensions or anything else we would then be back where we started.

The projection the £48 billion figure was based on was done before the financial crisis though - I wonder if it has actually reached that level.

The income surplus they are claiming in that article is £3 Billion. Not peanuts, but not transformative either.

Just found this about 9 pensioners an hour dying of the cold last winter

www.npcuk.org/pressrel.htm?no5

Apparently, they marched on Westminster in October. It didn't make much news, not like the students.

facts and figures about our pensioners. According to this our pensioners are the worst off in the entire EU

www.npcuk.org/factsandfigures/factsandfigures.htm#p3

Excess Winter Death Rate != Dieing due to not being able to afford fuel.

Death rates always go up in the Winter. A proportion may be due to or exacerbated by fuel poverty. But most will be due to the increase in colds and flu etc. in the Winter.

Here is some more explanation from the pensioners on the NI surplus

Politicians are misleading the public over National Insurance

Britain?s biggest pensioner organisation, the National Pensioners Convention (NPC), has criticised the three main political parties for misleading the public over the purpose of National Insurance.

Gordon Brown has claimed that the payments will be used for schools and police, whilst David Cameron has dubbed NI a tax on jobs. The NPC claims that neither are correct.

NPC research has revealed that for a number of years, politicians of all shades have been denying the very existence of the National Insurance Fund. Some claim it is simply an accounting tool; a notional fund that bears no relation to improving the state pension.

But the National Insurance scheme was established on 5 July 1948 to provide unemployment benefit, sickness benefit, retirement pensions and other benefits where individuals meet the contribution and other qualifying conditions, such as the annual Christmas Bonus.

In principle, the National Insurance Fund operates on a pay-as-you-go basis, the contributions received in each year being used to pay pensions and other benefits in the same year. In this respect it differs fundamentally from private pension funds, which need to build up reserves to cover their future liabilities.

The Government Actuary, who reports on the state of the Fund each year, also recommends that the Fund should also keep a balance to cover any unexpected short-fall in income of not less than two months? benefit expenditure.

Currently, the Government Actuary reports that the Fund has a surplus balance of £54bn, which is expected to rise to £102bn in just a few years.

Dot Gibson, NPC general secretary said: ?All the main political parties are misleading the public over the issue of National Insurance. NI is primarily collected to pay for pensions and contributory benefits. Only a very small proportion goes to the NHS and none of it is meant to be for education or the police. Pensioners are therefore understandably concerned that NI is being spent on everything but decent state pensions. The public need to know the truth about NI and none of the politicians are being honest about it. Raising NI would be popular if it was going to pay for higher state pensions rather than being used as a political football.?

some info on our winter mortality rates

'The simple fact that the UK has one of the highest winter mortality rates in Europe ? higher than even Sweden or Finland ? makes it clear this is very much a home-grown problem. These are avoidable deaths due not just to the cold weather in itself but to the country?s inability to meet the challenge of dropping temperatures. Behind these shocking statistics lie deep-seated social issues, such as 3.5 million older people in fuel poverty (1) and one in three over-60s living in houses which fail the decent-home standard (2).