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Politics

How about thinking of the elderly for a change ?

503 replies

ivanhoe · 30/11/2010 13:09

The middle classes have managed to put their case on the media map because of Child Benefit reductions.

Wheras the pensioners cause has never found a media voice.

So middle England are moaning about losing their Child benefit, and the media are picking up on it and discussing it as a topical issue, because the middle classes are making a fuss.

But hang on a minute ?, the poorest people in this country are not the middle classes, they are the working classes who in proportion to income are paying more taxes than the middle class, and the pensioners on a £5,000 a year State pension receiving a State pension which they have already paid for while working prior to their old age retirement are being ignored, even though the oldest pensioners fought for this country during the War years.

Our elderly people are the generation that government?s have run rough shod over for the past 30 years, this is the generation we should all be speaking up for, and this is the generation who have paid into the system all their working lives, but have to endure a basic State pension of £97 a week, and means tested handouts.

Many woman get less State pension due to lack of contributions while raising families.

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huddspur · 03/12/2010 19:23

"The free market goes against the soul."

What are you talking about?

Portofino · 03/12/2010 19:30

I have been told that in Belgium, if you need to go into a care home and can't afford it, the bill goes to your children to be paid off at an affordable rate (think student loan type payment) and if THEY don't pay it all, it goes on to the next generation. So your grandchildren could theoretically be paying for your care long after your death.

ivanhoe · 03/12/2010 19:52

Here we are, copied and pasted from the internet.

Care for the elderly in Wervik, Belgium
Introduction Measures of success Funding arrangements Working with partners Problems with expanding the full-service residential area Outcomes and impact Introduction
Wervik is a town of 17,500 inhabitants in rural West Flanders, Belgium. The older population in Wervik is growing and the number of younger people able to care for them is diminishing. Many older people acknowledge that they cannot cope on their own, although they do not necessarily want to go into residential care.

The Wervik Project aims to offer support to this group so that they could continue living in a home environment for as long as possible, with access to key care services nearby.

Myriam Deloddere, Manager of the Public Social Welfare Service (OCMW), Wervik, decided to develop a full-service residential care area in Wervik, having heard of a similar system in the Netherlands.

OCMW Wervik website

Since January 2004, older people in Wervik have had access to homes no further than 750 metres from the local hospital with a 24-hour care centre. Two new developments with 52 individual homes are under construction to enable life-long home living with immediate access to hospital care.

Not all elderly people in the area live in this type of housing. Many live in their own homes, which are often not adapted to their needs. The OCMW has a contract with a real estate agency. This enables older people to buy or rent a property from the agency and receive information on the full-service residential care service.

Measures of success
For the Wervik Project to be successful, a number of issues needed to be addressed:

The new site should have sufficient space to develop additional housing and support services: a minimum of four per cent and a maximum of 25 per cent of the housing must be developed in this way.
A minimum of four per cent and a maximum of 25 per cent of the inhabitants must be able to access services tailored to the needs of older people and people with disabilities.
A 24-hour care centre must be established within a 250-metre radius of the housing scheme.
There is a rest and care home function at the local hospital that provides a 24-hour care centre. Sixty-three homes are currently linked to the centre through an alarm system. Tenants can spend up to 90 nights a year in the hospital. The overnight care package ? which includes nursing, care, an evening meal and breakfast ? costs ?20 per night.

These services are complemented by an extensive range of home care services, including, for a nominal fee, home delivery from local shops. A transport service for elderly residents is also offered, together with ironing and cleaning, affordable clothes and an odd-jobs service. A pedestrian route around the town has been developed with benches at regular intervals.

Deloddere explains:

?There is pressure to expand the area. The problem is manageability. In any event, the model works. It costs money, but it is cheaper for an authority and for the clients than a rest or care home.

?The OCMW agrees that we must place all senior citizens who are not in need of care on the reserve list for care home places. For those in need we will check whether the full-service residential area can offer a solution. These people have to be helped differently, especially if they live in our full-service residential area.?

Funding arrangements
The OCMW receives increased federal government funding to cover the costs of care home places. But it does not receive enough to make money from the service.

The OCMW also receives substantial subsidies from various bodies. Without this it would be hard to offer such cheap services. OCMW also aims to raise money through other means.

Some of the funding is one-off: some of it is on a yearly basis. The majority of funding comes from the OCMW?s central budget.

Working with partners
The OCMW contacted many organisations working in the field. The purpose of the project is not to compete with those organisations. On the contrary, it can inform potential users of this central service about housing, catering, cleaning, nursing at home and so on offered by the organisations.

The OCMW also liaised closely with the council in Wervik and a social housing company.

Problems with expanding the full-service residential area
Funding is available from the Flemish government but the process of drawing this down takes time.
People living outside the area are lobbying to use the service.
There is no additional funding for the OCMW to continue renting the emergency call technology.
There is a lack of volunteers to carry out odd jobs.
Legal procedures, such as buying houses and funding for renovation, impede project progress.
Outcomes and impact
Before this project older people had no seamless service and had to rely predominantly on family members for full-time care. It was often difficult to get the right information about which possible services could be provided at the individual?s home.

With the implementation of the service, people can now contact the call centre or visit the OCMW office to get information on services and housing provided by both the OCMW as well as other agencies.

Local employment was boosted as a result of the Wervik project, which saw more than 50 full and part-time posts created, mainly in cleaning services.

Despite OCMW?s efforts to communicate with different groups, many were sceptical about the project. But by attracting the right motivated people and finding enough money to get started, it is now an indispensable service in the community. It attracts visitors from all over the country, and even from abroad, to witness the project in action. And the project is now copied in several other cities in Flanders.

Page published December 2009.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 03/12/2010 20:36

Ivanhoe - FINALLY some support for your argument/points! Personally, I think at that length you should link rather than copy and paste, but that's just nit-picking :)

Now, that sounds like a good project - can you explain the relevance to the thread and any of the specific points?

ivanhoe · 03/12/2010 20:38

To you ?, no.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 03/12/2010 20:59

Not much point you posting it if you don't want it understood really.

ivanhoe · 03/12/2010 23:19

/////"The free market goes against the soul."

What are you talking about?/////

You have proved my point.

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TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 03/12/2010 23:27

ivanhoe - What IS your point?

newwave · 03/12/2010 23:33

TCNY, In Ivanhoe makes some valid points but you are wasting your time trying to have a one way debate.

I detest the Tories and BNP but I would debate anything with them.

huddspur · 04/12/2010 00:03

Ivanhoe I don't know what your point is

claig · 04/12/2010 00:16

I think Ivanhoe's point is that the free market is about profit not people and therefore is against humanity and the human soul. There is some truth in that.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 04/12/2010 09:13

Claig - that entirely depends on your definition of the terms. I don't believe in a metaphysical spirit it soul, but I think we can sub in 'makes people unhappy' for 'against the soul' in this specific instance.
Do you agree with the substitution?

That leaves us with 'Free market'. As I would use the term, its a fairly neutral term for describing how people actually behave in trade when they are not responding to attempts to manipulate it - and that this is one of the optimal ways to allocate resources. This says nothing about what the aims of social assistance or social policy should be.
Others use the term to mean some kind if neo-Darwin nonsense, or some crap about the wisdom if crowds.
Ivanhoe and maybe you as well, Claig, I suspect ate using it to mean a moneterist economic and small statist social policy as advocated by eighties Tories.

claig · 04/12/2010 09:27

Yes I am using 'free market' in the sense of 'free market economics' as advocated by eighties Tories. The free market has negatives, but it also has positives (the main one being the 'free' aspect). The Human soul wants freedom and self-determination, and that is why I think that the 'free market' (even with its faults) is better than a Stalinist centrally-planned economy.

But free can also be a free-for-all where the strongest in a Darwinian sense grab the spoils and leave the poor to suffer. So free markets can't be entirely free, they do need some regulation to prevent a Darwinian survival of the fittest society.

claig · 04/12/2010 09:52

I think the substitution 'makes people unhappy' for the 'against the human soul' in the phrase
'free marketa are against the human soul'
is not quite strong enough.

I think the human soul represnts the law of nature and involves the concept of justice and breaking the laws of nature and going against God. Going 'against the human soul' is going against religion, since the soul is of God and not of this earth. So the transgression of going against the human soul is far greater than just making someone unhappy. You don't believe in the human soul, which means you are probably not religious and don't believe in God. Therefore ypu won't agree that a transgression against the soul is a far greater transgression than making someone unhappy.

ivanhoe · 04/12/2010 13:28

//////Yes I am using 'free market' in the sense of 'free market economics' as advocated by eighties Tories. The free market has negatives, but it also has positives (the main one being the 'free' aspect). The Human soul wants freedom and self-determination, and that is why I think that the 'free market' (even with its faults) is better than a Stalinist centrally-planned economy.

But free can also be a free-for-all where the strongest in a Darwinian sense grab the spoils and leave the poor to suffer. So free markets can't be entirely free, they do need some regulation to prevent a Darwinian survival of the fittest society./////

Brilliant.

The free market without State intervention, is like a drowing man without a life belt,
while those around him more able, have several life belts.

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ivanhoe · 05/12/2010 13:26

//////Yes I am using 'free market' in the sense of 'free market economics' as advocated by eighties Tories. The free market has negatives, but it also has positives (the main one being the 'free' aspect). The Human soul wants freedom and self-determination, and that is why I think that the 'free market' (even with its faults) is better than a Stalinist centrally-planned economy.

But free can also be a free-for-all where the strongest in a Darwinian sense grab the spoils and leave the poor to suffer. So free markets can't be entirely free, they do need some regulation to prevent a Darwinian survival of the fittest society./////

Yes, markets, as in Europe, need State intervention. Britain is pure market forces.

Otherwise we are a dog eat dog, couldnt care less nation.

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ivanhoe · 05/12/2010 13:29

//////I think Ivanhoe's point is that the free market is about profit not people and therefore is against humanity and the human soul. There is some truth in that.//////

There is every truth in that.

Im not religous, but the day Britain voted for Thatcher, that was the day Britain lost it's soul.

It is the banishment of the Ten Commandments, in favour of the golden idle, all over again, but we dont see it, because we dont want to see it.

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ivanhoe · 06/12/2010 10:46

This is the hallmark of our uncaring Nation.

Totally self obsorbed

Collapsed man left in street for five hours
Retired gardener Brian Courtney nearly died of hypothermia when he collapsed in a Salisbury street and passers-by ignored him for five hours.

Salisbury: hundreds walked past a collapsed man without helping him (Alamy)
The great-grandfather was walking to his doctor?s surgery when he fell unconscious on the pavement at about 8am.

But hundreds of pedestrians and motorists breezed past the 77-year-old and someone finally dialled 999 at 12.40pm.

When paramedics arrived minutes later, his body temperature had fallen to 26C (78.8F) and he was nearly dead.

Mr Courtney, who suffers from a kidney condition, was taken to hospital and doctors were amazed he survived the ordeal in central Salisbury, Wiltshire.

?I can?t believe that nobody stopped to help him,? said his daughter Karen Paddington. ?It makes you question how caring people really are here,? she added.

A spokesman for the Great Western Ambulance Service NHS Trust confirmed just how close the pensioner had been to dying.
.He said: ?We received a 999 call at 12.40 last Wednesday to an elderly patient suffering from hypothermia.

?The man was thought to be in his 70s by the caller. He was in the advanced stages of hypothermia.

?The call was classed as Category A which meant the condition was immediately life threatening. It was a high priority call.

?A crew arrived at 12.42 and delivered the patient to Salisbury District Hospital.?

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dreamingofsun · 06/12/2010 15:44

ivanhoe for once i agree wholehearedly with you. what also shocked me is that normally salisbury is the most gentile and civil of places.

ivanhoe · 16/12/2010 12:14

//////ivanhoe for once i agree wholehearedly with you///////

Do you ?, how terribly fortunate I am to have such a worldy gift bestowed upon myself.

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ivanhoe · 20/12/2010 22:39

/////I absolutely despise the fact that because my husband earns over and I cannot work that we get outr child benefit taken off us and are classed as 'middle class' when a couple could earn twice as much and get more tax allowance and be much better off with 'disabled' children or any other commitments.//////

Yes the system deliberately pits man again man, and we Brit's fall for it every time.

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ivanhoe · 19/01/2011 14:17

I notice there's been no takers on this one.

Because it's very true.

We British are the most greey self centred race on this planet.

We get exactly the government's we deserve.

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Chil1234 · 19/01/2011 14:33

One sad story doesn't prove a point. There are legions of volunteers who give up their time every day for elderly people. There are families that care for their elderly relatives in the home rather than leave it to someone else. In our street, when the snow was bad recently, a few of us knocked on doors of older residents and offered to sweep paths or get shopping.

You might be greedy and self-centred but you don't represent me or the people I know.

ivanhoe · 19/01/2011 23:38

Charity is easy.

Standing and being counted on behalf of others isnt, particularly when it means increases in taxation to give other people a better life style, ie pensioners.

Dickens Christmas Carol is a study in "ignorance breeding want".

Take heed, you will be old one day.

And plenty can happen in between.

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Chil1234 · 20/01/2011 07:37

Being old and bitter is easy.