Depressed lefties - what now, is there any hope?

[electra]

I hate what this government are doing. All the sh*t about 'if you're poor/disabled' we'll look after you - yeah right, by designing a test which tries to make people who are disabled look like they're not. Everything else too.

Do you think Ed Miliband will lessen the chances of us being stuck with the tories for another 5 years? I can't bear them.

hi complimentary, I'm trying to resist the temptation to expound on what went wrong for the progressive party. Unfortunately, it would take far too long, time doesn't permit and I have more productive things to do, like pour a drink and celebrate the victory of Captain Cameron and the able crew, known as the Coalition.

Here! Here! I couldn't be bothered either, I thought the Labour Parties demise and the reason for it, was self evident.

I am proud to be a champagne socialist. Champagne for all.

Up the Workers!

Well someone has to work to pay the taxes to keep the socialists in champagne.

Gah.

Is nowhere safe? I just came for a mope.

But I really did never understand what was wrong with everyone having champagne. Share it all out, I say. And when it's gone, why, we'll all drink nasty lager/beer/alcopops.

On a slightly more cheerful note - what about this for a thesis:

The elite in Britain are extremely successful at maintaining their power and influence pretty much regardless of the government in power, and effectively preventing any substantial redistribution of resources by the Labour party purely on the back of an electoral mandate.

The times historically in which there have been substantial gains by the common people have been (pace the post war settlement) when this elite has felt threatened with all out revolution.

Generally, given the quietism of the British people, this mainly happens when there are serious revolutionary movements elsewhere in Europe, which could - potentially - spread to Britain.

Clearly, there is the potential for this to be a moment of crisis throughout Europe (indeed it is already shaping up that way) - cf the wave of revolutions that ended feudalism in a very few years.

So potentially, all we (those of us on the left) need to do is hope that things kick off big style in Europe, and then that there is some sympathetic movement here - albeit on a smaller scale - but enough to seriously stress the elite.

I know its a long chance, but hell, there's nothing like optimism

"So potentially, all we (those of us on the left) need to do is hope that things kick off big style in Europe, and then that there is some sympathetic movement here - albeit on a smaller scale - but enough to seriously stress the elite. "

Straight from the SWP play book, in which an impending crisis of capitalism is eternally just around the corner, and, comrades, the Leninist vanguard and the party cadre will be ideally placed to assume the leadership of the proletariat. But not on Thursdays, as we've got seminars to go to.

When things kick of big style, to coin a phrase, do you think it's more likely that (a) democratic socialism from below will lead to a fairer, juster society or (b) hideous racists will embark on a savage campaign against every minority that comes to hand or, more to the point, fist? Because my money is on (b), to be honest.

I think tokyonambu needs some champagne.

Well, that wasn't quite what I had in mind! I was thinking more the sort of changes that led to the birth of the welfare state, the end of feudalism in several countries in Europe in the 18thC, etc.

Hoh yes.

And a couple of lines.

TBH, I wasn't being dreadfully serious, merely trying to answer the 'is there any hope' question in the OP.

But it is indeed true that crises often lead to fundamental changes - (think of the extension of the vote to women following the first world war, just for example).

this crisis will lead to change, but it will be for the worse. It will affect the welfare system , our pensions etc. It's not good, but it is happening in every country. Labour were on the path to implement these changes anyway, they are fully a part of it. It was Harriet Harman who was pushing through an increase in the pensionable age and it was Caroline Flint who warned the unemployed, "work or lose your home". This involves all of the parties, just like the expense scandal did.

The lovely welfare state will turn out to have been a teeny political post war blip in the general landscape of rampant capitalism.

Very hard to predict the future, though - I imagine that there can't have been that many people in, say 1935, who could have imagined the political landscape in the 1950s.

John Gray's book False Dawn is an interesting read re. the 'inevitability' of free market capitalism, I think (although it is too long, and he does wilfully misrepresent the facts in a few places IMO).

Hully don't ever say things like that. My champagne glass will be full of nowt but tears before bedtime.

Say what you like, Hully. I just snaffled those two lines and although I no longer care about the demise of the welfare state, I have just had a great idea for a BBC2 gameshow.

So not all bad.

Hello depressed lefties

It is thoroughly miserable but to an extent I do think there is a point in what some people are saying about it being Labour's fault. Not necessarily because of anything they did but they ultimately continued Thatcherism with regard to fiscal policy when they had a huge mandate for change. In 1997 New Labour could have pretty much done anything, they wasted the opportunity imo.

Of course we have had a global recession but economic decline should have been an opportunity for great change, progressive change, instead it's coalition ripping the arse out of everything.

Latest YouGov/Sun Poll: CON 41% (-2), LAB 40% (+4), LDEM 11% (-1) - Govt approval rating -7

Does this cheer anyone up a little?

Labour also engaged in fuckwitted stupidity like ID Cards and 90 Day detention which ensured that a significant proportion of its natural supporters ("Guardian readers") were not onside. They also engaged in fuckwitted stupidity over immigration, on the grounds that cheap unskilled labour in London was more important than the effect on wages and conditions in traditional Labour strongholds. Brown's economic policies benefited Tory voters more than anyone else, and they're still voting Tory. Meanwhile, a lot of natural Labour voters stayed at home. Labour lost something like 9 million votes between 1997 and 2010. Nothing Ed Milliband has said indicates he even acknowledges this has happened, never mind having a plan to deal with it.

Re beenbeta's post on the Tea Party [shurely 'Peasant's Revolt'? Ed.]

'woman to lead it who scrubs up reasonably well, doesn't mind hunting furry animals and lives somewhere cold with its own oil'.

Have removed the words 'and remote' to avoid excess offence.

Ladies and gentlemen

Brothers and sisters - she's already here - the magnificent, magniloquent <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41958000/jpg/_41958980_gailclosingpa203.jpg&imgrefurl=news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5238222.stm&usg=__PXhgPDlCqy6vrUbSbBNObneLZxc=&h=152&w=203&sz=6&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=MyGqDfsYN9pU7M:&tbnh=121&tbnw=162&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgail%2Bsheridan%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D584%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=197&vpy=125&dur=5365&hovh=121&hovw=162&tx=80&ty=139&ei=3C22TITSKIyTjAeDs-i1Aw&oei=uS22TM_cDY3EswbC8sG0CA&esq=3&page=1&ndsp=13&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Gail Sheridan

hope to God that link works, it's weird!

Agree totally tokyo. Has this government learned nothing from the reign of James II?

There is always hope. See here . Not really a leftie, but this makes sense. Everyone on less than £100k unite. Click on the link and add your support.

Of special interest to Bill Nighy fans.

"Say what you like, Hully. I just snaffled those two lines and although I no longer care about the demise of the welfare state, I have just had a great idea for a BBC2 gameshow.

So not all bad"

Roaring at that one