If you don't go to church, why not?

[ilovejonty]

Is it because you don't have a faith/ belief in God?

Or:

Other reason - for example, never been, don't feel the need, intimidating, you are too busy etc...?

If you would like to go to church but don't, what would encourage you and what would put you off?

amber, in what way precisely is God 'looking out for' the inhabitants of the Gaza strip, Afghanistan, Iraq, most of starving Africa, victims of famine and earthquake, children murdered by their parents etc etc?

I say it again: even if you do choose to believe in some things some men wrote about centuries ago, it doesn't follow that you believe in a godhead that spends all of its time 'looking out for' individuals. The lives of many people are filled with misery and injustice, some of it man-made, some of it not. Once you start thinking God's your special friend it begs the question why he chooses not to be friendly to all those people.

All these more intellectual theological bits of the discussion are fascinating, but come down to the same thing: the texts you are discussing are written by men who are arguing the toss about older texts whose authenticity and accuracy is already highly questionable. Even the gospels are contradictory about the most basic facts of Jesus' life. I was brought up RC (very happily and guiltlessly; I just don't believe it these days) and always rather liked the endemic bible avoidance of that faith!

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bloss, I'm not 'pretending there is one clear answer' to any of the questions raised about one's belief or otherwise in God. That's what believers tend to do. But in fact there are no answers, easy or otherwise, as to why God would favour some and not others - unless one wants to rewind several centuries and return to the dark ages, where, for example, mental illness was seen as demonic posession and proof of evil forces, and rich people believed their wealth was their reward from God.

In terms of Christ's authenticity - such a man almost certainly (no, not completely certainly - he could be an amalgam of several preachers who were in the area around that time) existed, but there are many similiarites between the ancient texts of other religions (some now defunct) which worship the human-born son of a creator figure, and to find faith from the bible as well as fact really is a mental leap which many of us don't find the grounds or the need to make. That is the point I made about theological texts based on the bible: they are philosophically interesting but are essentially conjecture and not 'proof' of anything.

ermintrude, once again, I do not think I have a 'special' relationship with God that no-one else has.

I believe that we are all created the same and we're all loved by Him the same. No, I don't understand all on this world, but perhaps being on the autistic spectrum makes it easier for me to cope with, since I understand a darned sight less about ordinary people than I do about God so far. As for what God is doing to people in Gaza, I think you'll find that's people doing that, not God. Famine and earthquake? Help through it, heaven afterwards for all eternity. That's always been the deal. And the west could afford food for all, but we choose not to. So blaming God isn't fair on him.

Message withdrawn

amber and bloss, you're not getting it. I don't 'blame God' for the bad deal many people get, because I don't believe there is a God. My point is that those who say they believe that God is looking out for them aren't acknowledging that/explaining why he certainly isn't looking out for millions of other people in the world. The notion that in disasters God will provide 'help through it, heaven afterwards' prob wouldn't go down well with someone who's just lost her family to a flood, earthquake, volcanic eruption etc.

'You say that because bad stuff happens, there cannot be an all-loving God'

...erm, nope, I've suggested that some posters who say they believe in a benevolent God really need to come up with some specific explanations as to why there is so much in the world that is not benevolent, not all of which can be put down to nasty godless folk being awful.

I am so au fait with the historical 'evidence' that I know much of it is hokum. And the fact remains that, whether or not I believe JC existed in the form presented by the bible, I don't believe he was the son of god and nothing can prove he was. Overarching all of this is another point I've already made: that if he was the son of god he must be gnashing his teeth as human beings waste precious time arguing about the outward trappings of religious faith and how to 'worship' him, rather than living a loving, ethical, responsible life. A god who requires worship sounds like a pathetic human being. Living a good life is important but doesn't require or depend upon religious justification.

Ermintrude, well, (and in no particular order), I've got a disability that rates as one of the most complex and debilitating there is, plus arthritis, scoliosis, endometriosis. I've lost all four of our parents in circumstances ranging from horrific to worse. I have a disabled husband and son. I've lost a baby and very nearly lost my life. I grew up in poverty (the sort where you have to grow your own food or don't eat), in a household with domestic violence within it, as a young carer to a parent who was at various stages depressed, insane, agoraphobic and anorexic. I've withstood endless bullying including physical violence, anxiety and depression of my own from time to time, and have withstood sexual abuse as well. Which person in the world do you honestly believe has had a much tougher time than I have?

Yet I believe.

More so, if anything. Never a good idea to assume you're talking to someone with no clue.

Amber, don't you think there are millions of people who have suffered and are suffering as much as and more than you? Some of them will believe in God, some of them won't. I'm not going to list my woes or my joys to justify the fact I don't believe. It's not relevant.

I realise this thread has turned into something the OP probably didn't intend, which was simply about churchgoing, whereas we're now at the point of non-sequiteurs about belief or non-belief - so I'm going to sign off now with best wishes to all for 2009.

Message withdrawn

Ermintrude, I wasn't demanding they believe in God. That's up to them.

Likewise, will depart from this thread.

Bloss, I know you say you're off, but just wanted to say thanks for the reminder about Tacitus... Happy New Year to you and to all, and to the OP.

I should probably go too - just wanted to say does everyone know the fabulously funny thing Teresa of Avila said in trance to Jesus? He said (believe as ye list) bad things happened to her, and by that she could know she was really his friend. She said that's why you have so few friends, then...

I cannot see a loving God thinking that it was ok for one of his children to rape, torture and murder another one, and the "excuse" is that we have free will and choice. If he is all powerful, then why allow it? I would not allow my child to torture another one of my children.

The offer of heaven and everlasting life sounds great, but again erm...who knows? Nobody. But thats faith isnt it? And choice.

I wonder how many go to church "just in case"...