If you don't go to church, why not?

[ilovejonty]

Is it because you don't have a faith/ belief in God?

Or:

Other reason - for example, never been, don't feel the need, intimidating, you are too busy etc...?

If you would like to go to church but don't, what would encourage you and what would put you off?

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Can you find me a bit in the Bible which implies he is not all he's made up to be?

Well, of course we can't because the people who wrote the Bible implicitly believed and had proof that he had died and had risen. Nobody in the Bible is going to say that he didn't exist.

You won't get both sides; however we do know certain texts were omitted rom the finished Bible- albeit (the collaters certainly believed) with God's guidance

A more full picture can be obtained reading through the Gospels of St Thomas, etc

can I recommend this resource for anyone interested in religion inc. Christianity (but deffo not ust- anything but!)

Because how can I believe in a God that would condone the wealth of the church and let people starve outside???

People can't eat gold and artwork, liein

Dangerous words, whoever said that she feels god is 'looking out for her'. It's such arrogance, and so human, to believe that even if there were some supernatural power he/she/it would be taking a personal interest in our lives. And when someone gets bombed to death, or terminal cancer, or loses a child - has god forgotten to 'look out for them'? Or maybe they're really bad and deserved it, unlike the splendid lucky people for whom god constantly looks out? Come off it folks; shit happens, lovely things happen, some of both is due to human acts, much of it is due to nature, most of it's random. Once you start trying to second-guess the 'godhead' using human rationale, you really are on a hiding to nothing. The last thing any almighty could give two hoots about is all this human faffing about over churches, liturgies and belief systems.

Respect the world and everything in it, try to be kind, brave, generous and honest, give and find love, appreciate wonders and stand up when you're knocked down, make a difference. If you want to do it for a god, that's fine, but living a good life is worth it just for itself and is far more important than saying certain words in certain buildings on certain days of the week.

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well said

Agreed schoolfees, but here's the thing. If I were in charge of a religion that professes to be kind and charitable, I would sell the real estate, keep some small local halls, I would feed the homeless with teh proceeds of all of the melted down gold and silver and I would burn hte artwork to heat the buildings.

Just an idea.

It's not that I don't believe in Christianity, it's more that I cannot stand the bloody hypocrisy that goes with it.

I don't attend church as I am an Atheist.

However I do attend a playgroup at the local Baptist church and have to mumble embarrasedly through 'He's got the whole world in his hand' every week after we have sung Twinkle Twinkle and Wind the Bobbin etc. - I always feel like a t**t singing but they do lovely tea and biscuits - suppose that doesn't really count though!?

That's not Christianity oneliein, that's a body who claim to represent Christianity. The two can be separated. Many a Christian lives a good life without worshipping formally.

But Clarissimo, find me a Christian group who aren't like that? Catholics are the worst, closely followed by CofE.

ermintrude, don't you think that people who need a God or superpower to look out for them are actually weak? Its like saying, hey its someone else's fault that this happens or it is out of my hands.

Well, I went to church this evening for the first time in a looong while. It was nice, actually, a reflective service with a very small bunch of people. It was easy to chat to people as it was a very relaxed and non-cliquey setting.

What was interesting is that although there was a gentle, simple liturgy, it seemed very much that they're trying to break out of the things that have been the 'norm' (what I earlier called 'Churchianity' rather than Christianity - i.e. doing things the way that the church has always done them).

Oneliein, I would include your complaints in the 'Churchianity' box - the Anglican church as an organisation has become so used to doing things a certain way that it's hard for those at the top to see any way of functioning that would involve exploding those norms. As a consequence they have tied themselves into the very mechanisms that rob their church of its potential for vitality and radicalism - exactly the characteristics of the Jesus who they represent.

Morningpaper asked me earlier what I think could replace the current, failing of the church. Here are some of my ideas of what church should be like:

1. Church should be 'messy'.
   Life is hard. Bloody hard. Sometimes our lives are a mess. Frankly, I think all of us end up in a mess at various times of our lives, and church should be a place where we can be ourselves, be honest about our failings (leaders included) no matter what those failings are. This is not to say that we should share all our sins loudly at every service. What I mean is that there should be no culture within a church which encourages people to pretend.

2. Church should be a family.
   You can't have a 'messy' church without real community. I think most churches profess or aim to operate as a family. Yet in my experience many (even most?) churches fail. In our UK culture we have been so utterly self-absorbed and absorbed by possessions and the wanting of more possessions that we have lost the art of giving each other the time and attention that we ourselves need and desire. As Barack Obama says: 'we all have a stake in each other'. Society functions like a body, with knock-on effects when one part of the body is sick. No society can function well if it's neglecting some of its citizens; the same goes for a church community.

3. Church should be a place for questions.
   Life is extraordinarily complex at times. Nobody has all the answers. It's both enjoyable and intellectually beneficial to cogitate over the complexities of life.Our society goes at such a pace that we often fail to give due time and attention to considering the big issues of life - really considering them. For instance I recently came to a decision about what I think of the modern day concept of marriage. I've been thinking about this issue on and off for a few years and finally had a eureka. What's wrong with spending months or years debating with each other/ ourselves? It's what our forbears did, after all. Just because modern life races ahead at warp speed that's no reason for our thinking to match it. Church should be a place where we are encouraged to debate, question and ruminate over the issues of life as well as what we're taught in Church, so that we really understand why we believe what we believe about life.

As a former teacher I heartily welcome group debate during church gatherings - we learn much better when we are involved than when we sit and listen. Why not structure services so that there is ample time devoted to small-group learning and debate? I've seen small-group stuff done once in a blue moon in church services, but this has usually been for group prayer rather than what I'm suggesting.

It's late so I won't go on. As far as I can see I haven't said anything new; you may even recognise one of my unattributed quotes above as one of Jesus' sayings. So it's all stuff that should be happening in church already. But all too often it's not. Yet.

Ermintrude, you suggested it was arrogance to believe that God would care about us individually. As someone with a major disability who sometimes struggles to keep going, He's definitely been there for me. I appreciate I can't prove that to you. But it's the promise from Him in the Bible, too.
Without God, there'd be disaster and disease and disability and then death. With Him, there's help and support now, and a life of peace afterwards forever if we're lucky enough to get in (and no, luck isn't the right word). It works for me. It's simple, there's benefits, I'm ok with it.
Amber (autism spectrum, arthritis etc)

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amber, yes I do think it's arrogant to believe that God is looking out for you personally, because the opposite side of that coin is that he ain't looking out for a hell of a lot of other people - and why not? Has he made a special case for you whilst ignoring other people? I know several positive-thinking, happy in spite of their difficulties, disabled people who find strength and inspiration in themselves, their families and friends, the natural world, art, music and all the other life-enhancing attributes of the world that many of us are lucky enough to enjoy. If having a faith and believing what the bible says helps you through life, that's entirely your prerogative and I respect your right to hold those views. But I don't respect the views themselves. The world is already full of disaster and disability and we'll all die in the end. It's also full of joy and wonder and love. Giving God credit for one side of things whilst saying he's nothing to do with the other seems to let him off the hook, rather.

And bloss - I agree that thinking individuals are completely in charge of their lives is as daft as thinking God has charted a path for each of us. As I've said, the course of our lives depends on some self-determination, the actions of other people, nature, and a great deal of chance.

Bloss, I agree that you cannot control everything and that other people, circumstances etc can and do cause situations.

However, things are not IMHO "in God's hands" or "at the will of God" - all of this is used as an excuse for inaction or indecision. We, as individuals need to accept responsibility for our own actions and decisions. Individuals need other people. I just don't believe saying that a superpower will sort it out is remotely sensible.

oneliein- you have (and we have of course) to remember that any group consists of individuals; within that mix there will everyone from fraudsters to aspiring- angels of the sort that I suspect you and I would agree on a definition of 'a proper 'Christian'. I wouldn't even bother to try and argue that the powerful ones (Pope etc) are great examples: imo they are not. But there are some fabulous ministers and many incredible 'ordinary' level Christians out there.

As there are in all faiths.

If I attended Church it would be for the fellowhsip but it would be the closest to me and I would want to be judged by my actions and not those of the geographically closest religious building iyswim

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ermintrude, God looks out for all of us, not just me. People might not like the set of rules, but they're clearly written out in the Bible. Jesus didn't have an easy life - he was ignored, humiliated, beaten, spat at, whipped, and crucified. He was afraid, he was angry, he was sad. He knew what it was like to go through all these things. No way am I claiming some special benefit for me or saying that this world is nothing to do with God. But it's a real world and he's explained that he does know what pain is like. For me, that works. It might not work for you, but I'd rather it not be describe as arrogance as if I think I'm special. I have no such belief.

Thanks Amber

Just thought I'd add my tuppenny, because I do go to church but not for any of the reasons people give here. I'm afraid I don't see it as social, but as a lovely lonely blissful silent me-time in which I don't have to run around doing work or childcare or cleaning but can be alone with my thoughts (and with God, too). You might say the bath is just as good; for me it isn't (because people always knock and enter?). I therefore like the old RC Extraordinary Rite mass best, because it asks nothing but silence from those who attend. You don't have to respond or know responses.

When I first went I had no clue what to do, but by the third or fourth time it felt utterly natural and meditative and serious - and very beautiful.

This makes me a sucky parishioner in that I don't go to the teas etc or iron the altarcloths, but I do and have offered help to individual people I know need it - and ds, dd and I have formed friendships with a really lovely homeless guy, and you can rely on the RC to be very very inclusive, with people from all social strands, including the one who stole my purse a year or so ago . I just don't go to services to meet and greet. Okay, I'mm probably selfish - but anyone who loves silence is welcome to be silent alongside me.

We're very lucky in Oxford in that the priests are exceptional, both brainy and kind. But I don't talk to them much - or tbh care what they do in their off hours. As far as I'm concerned, they are there to administer the sacraments, nuff said and done.

I kinda find it hard to empathise with what all of you who don't go object to - not of course those who don't believe so much, but beware that when I began going I didn't really believe either (this was because of the obvious horrors last century, and I couldn't see why a God who could make pictures cry coudln't stop the Holocaust) ... Nowadays I never feel frowned on or dictated to, because all my time is really taken up with just being, and with the joy of utter silence. I don't think I ever feel guilty in the way some of you might mean either. Don't think I ever have despite being a cradle Catholic. Not about matters sexual anyway.

IMHO, God as I understand the term is in that silence and stillness. But also IMHO there is a right path to God for each person, and yours may not be mine.

On a different subject: Bloss - the gnostic gospels are much later than the canonical gospels, in some cases more than 200 years later, and though v. beautiful they are largely metaphorical and often neoplatonist rather than factual or historical. what texts are you thinking of that criticise jesus, btw? I can only come up with Josephus, but this isn't really my field so I'm glad to be enlightened.

I don't go on a Sunday as we are so busy all the time. I work on Saturday so Sunday is the only day where we can be leisurely. I know that sounds bad but everyone needs a family day and getting up to leave by 9.30 on a Sunday with three children (and dh ) to dress and feed is not a leisurely family Sunday. I do however go to the midweek Thursday service with dd which I love as it gives me time to think.