Lily Philips - can she be a 'true' Christian?

[mids2019]

https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/lily-phillips-has-been-baptised-i-pray-its-accompanied-by-change/20772.article

This article made me think about what it means to be Christian especially about the concepts of sin, judgment and redemption.

In my view Lily of course is a Christian being baptised but to not give up a lucrative adult film career possibly does cause angst amongst more traditional Christians.

We are taught not to judge 'Let those without sin cast the first stone' and to accept the universal unconditionally of forgiveness. (We pray every day about the forgiveness of sin) so it is difficult thologically to condemn others.

However does any fellow Christian need to remind Lily she makes money from a profession where many women with less choice are coerced and manipulated for thr gratification of men? Wr have moved away from a less judgmental Christianity but how do you view participation in Christian life with such a job?

Off-topic, but I hadn't seen gotquestions.org referenced since around 2012. When I began questioning my faith, that website was the final nail in the coffin. While it's still a disturbing site, at least they've rewritten the guidance on domestic violence to advise victims to get help. Back in the 2010s their advice was that if a woman was abused by her husband, he should temporarily move out and repent, she should assure him repeatedly that he had her unwavering support, and he should move back in once a Christian counsellor had cleared him. They emphasised that women should not divorce their abusive husbands, and calling the police was never even mentioned as a possibility. That website probably got women killed back in the day.

That's a question that could lead to a long answer. I'm not sure how much you want me to explain. Here's my quick summary to try and answer, but apologies because it will include a fair few religious terms.

God alone is holy and fully good. He is the authority on what is good and what is evil.

Humanity was originally made good but was corrupted by sin. Humans cannot decide what is good or evil on our own because we don't know and often even when we do know, we choose to do what we know is wrong anyway.

God made a way for us to become righteous through the death and resurrection of Jesus.

When we receive salvation we receive immediate redemption and an eternal future with God in the New heaven and earth to come.

We also start a journey of sanctification- where we grow in righteousness, love and holiness. Whilst we live on earth our old sinful nature and habits battle against our new Spirit filled nature. The commands of God are useful to help us know the right way and grow in righteousness.

When we die or when Jesus returns our sanctification will be made complete and we won't have the inner battle anymore.

Doesn’t answer the question of why a Christian needs to be commanded to behave well whereas an atheist doesn’t need to be told how to behave?
Being a Christian doesn’t mean you are more likely to be a “good “ person than someone who isn’t.

Oh sorry, you're right, I didn't answer the question.

Atheists also need the commands of God to be good people. In fact, many atheists (and agnostics and people of other religions) obey lots of God's commands and ways and are rightfully respected for their generosity, honesty, hard work and kindness.

Obviously, atheists don't attribute this way of living as God's commands and would have a different reasoning behind their morals.

I believe that humans are capable of recognising goodness (although our recognition is imperfect because of sin) and long for goodness because God is good and we were made for goodness.

@Pearl87 Yes I totally agree with you on that subject, since I was an abused wife. Now of course being a Christian (husband was not) I agonised on leaving the marriage, for years. Felt I had to persevere. Eventually, as things were escalating, I realised that it would be really stupid staying and that surely God would not want me being hurt, so I left, and I believe that was the right thing to do. Marrying a non-Christian was the mistake!

I would like to tag in something you posted upthread a bit into this "God alone is holy and fully good. He is the authority on what is good and what is evil."

And the bit In the post I am replying to :

"Atheists also need the commands of God to be good people. In fact, many atheists (and agnostics and people of other religions) obey lots of God's commands and ways and are rightfully respected for their generosity, honesty, hard work and kindness."

What came first ? Evolution or your God ?

Evolution explains how different societies came about, and how moral codes were formulated over time. Humanity built the Pyramids, Stone Henge, The great wall of China etc, before the God called Yahweh or Jesus had even been invented.

And if you look at your line above where you mention evil, the evolution of that as a concept can be tracked through the Bible. (when used in Christian terms) As can the evolution of Yaweh be tracked.

I used to reconcile all the above in my Christian days by saying the same God appeared to different peoples at different times in a different form, for "reasons". But when one starts to think of what the "reasons" are, it all falls apart.

And in an above post you say " God made a way for us to become righteous through the death and resurrection of Jesus."

So you are saying that other cultures/ civilisations/ people can't be "righteous " because they have no Jesus ? Because of a human sacrifice that you believe done some sort of magic spell ?

And to cap it all, have you thought of what you mean by "righteous " ? How are you defining that here, in this context ?

Oh, and what happens to the people who have never even heard of Jesus ? What happens to them ?

Or it could all just be evolution. We are an ape species that needs to live socially to survive after all.

@RedTagAlan all deep and valid questions about the Christian faith.

Can I ask though, are you asking them because you are interested in hearing a Christian answer to them? Or are you asking them because you suspect the Christian posters have never thought about it before?

It's just that if you are someone who has left the faith because you couldn't find satisfactory answers to these and other similar questions, you have probably already examined the arguments more deeply than I have capacity to explain here.

Concepts of holiness, salvation, God's revelation to people before Jesus, evolution, are all topics worthy of their own threads. They are brilliant things to study and would make for great discussions.

@RedTagAlan Am pretty sure you've had answers to all those questions in various threads on MN. Don't know how many years you've been here but these types of questions have come up many times before.

Interesting response. As an atheist I don’t need the commands of god to be a good person - he doesn’t exist. I don’t need to be commanded on how to behave .

Maybe think why they keep coming up- perhaps because Christians can’t provide an explanation which is based on truth and facts?

Yes, it’s baffling. The idea of a deity holding out the carrot of heaven and the stick of eternal damnation to compel good behaviour just isn’t necessary (though it was obviously socially useful in the past for compelling compliance to community norms at times when the rule of law was weak).

It’s perfectly possible to live with justice, compassion and generosity without any religious beliefs or trappings. it’s deeply juvenile to think you need a supernatural parent-figure to ‘obey’.

Well, as Christians believe in the Bible and God (which atheists don't) then I wouldn't expect any of our explanations (even if I can pull a piece of Noah's ark out and place it in front of you) to convince you.

I would expect everyone to work with facts and evidence regardless of their beliefs

Other posters seem to have answered much of that that since you posted.

See here where I posted this :-"I used to reconcile all the above in my Christian days by saying the same God appeared to different peoples at different times in a different form, for "reasons". But when one starts to think of what the "reasons" are, it all falls apart."

That is what I had to do when I was a Christian. That was my mental gymnastics. The surface layer anyway. A lot of it, Jesus on the cross etc. I never even thought about. Because it is so ingrained into many societies that the most obvious questions are not asked.

You posted this :' Can I ask though, are you asking them because you are interested in hearing a Christian answer to them? Or are you asking them because you suspect the Christian posters have never thought about it before?"

Well, it would be nice if the religious could stop having their religion inserted into laws, education, politics... and wars that are currently going on. We can throw in the thing where other Christian posters here are saying nobody can be moral without their God.

I notice you don't even try to answer any of the questions. Your response appears to he " Oh, something wrong with that poster"

Here is one of the threads I have started here. I did not see any evidence posted to show my question was wrong.

Does Christian apologetics encourage people to be dishonest ? | Mumsnet

Apologetics are fundamentally dishonest. It’s putting your finger on the scales, or doing a scientific experiment in the knowledge of the result you ‘have to’ end up with. It’s the child cheating in a maths test, seeing the right answer on someone else’s copybook, writing it down and then having to try and come up with a plausible set of workings-out to arrive at that answer.

You could dig up an entire boat from 4004 BC (Using the Usher timelines), and it could be full of animal poo, and it would still not make the book of Genesis, and all that followed it, to be proven to be true.

In fact, there are boats older than that have been found that predate Genesis, and the whole 5k years old world thing. The Pesse canoe has been dated to about 8k years ago.

It would be impressive if the boat you found contained sloth poo from South America, Kangaroo poo, Polar bear poo and Penguin poo. For sure.

If you hand me an old piece of wood and say "This is a piece of Noah's ark" then, no, that by itself wouldn't convince me.

If I handed you a small brown rock and said "This is the seer stone that Joseph Smith used to translate the golden plates", would that convince you that the Book of Mormon was true?

Thanks @RedTagAlan , I asked my question because I only have time and head space right now to give very basic answers that will probably not satisfy you.

If you would like a deeper and more thought out Christian perspective on these things I can recommend the book Letters from a Skeptic by Gregory Boyd and Edward Boyd. It's a series of letters between an atheist father and a Christian son about the Christian faith.

I'll give a quick go to answer your questions.

• God existed before all things. From everlasting to everlasting He is God
• All humanity has sinned. Hebrew word for sin means literally to miss the mark, like an arrow missing the target. All humanity has missed the the mark of being bearers of God's image - always perfectly good.
• No one can atone for their own sins. Only blood can atone for sins. Animal sacrifice was a symbolic act to demonstrate repentance and the need of God's grace.
• being made righteous in the Christian sense is about being cleansed from all of our sin and having a changed heart. It's not about living a generically morally good life. *God provided the only blood sacrifice that could actually save and redeem sinners - the blood if the sinless Jesus Christ, willingly offered.
• You're not far off by describing it as a magic spell. I would use the word miracle. But yes salvation is a supernatural spiritual work.
• People who live (or lived) without ever knowing about Jesus can still be saved through faith in God and hope in His mercy. Jesus sacrifice stretched backwards and forwards in time to cover everyone who would seek God in faith.
• God is good and truly just. He understands everyone's circumstances and context and their hearts and motives. His judgement will be completely fair and merciful.

I'm aware that nearly every point I make raises 10 more questions from an atheist mindset. My beliefs are based on a foundation you don't accept.

I’m not looking for anyone to address my so called sins - what right would they have?
I’m not looking for anyone to save me - from what?
Life is so much easier and straightforward without religious rules and restraints. No one to obey!

Substitutionary atonement is one of the more fundamentally troubling aspects of Christianity. I've seen it described here as "you stole a cake so a kitten needs to get punched to make up for it."

Bluntly, they’re based on nonsense. Killing a willing victim as scapegoat does not magically atone for the wrongdoings of anyone else at all, far less all of humanity. Blood is just a biological fluid that transports nutrients and gases around our bodies, and animal sacrifices were a way of propitiating deities or asking favours from them, by ritually killing an animal, most of whose meat was then consumed by the community as a bonding ritual.

It’s very significant that you’re salivating over the ‘blood magic’ and dismissing the ‘genetically morally good life’. That’s the important part.

If you are starting with this : "God existed before all things. From everlasting to everlasting He is God"

Evidence for that comes first then. Do you have any evidence for this ?

And yes, this is important because there are politicians/ educators/ "morality police" all over, who do impose, and want to impose more, of this belief, without evidence, on everyone.

Are you a young earth, old earth, or an "intellegent design" Christian by the way. That might be important in the discussion to follow.

I’d suggest you watch this - actual evidence

I have a myriad of experiences and thought processes that have led me to the faith. I have become convicted through my reading of scripture, my observations of the world around us and through my inner feelings. I don't present these things as evidence to you. I am not seeking to prove God's existence to you. God is big enough to prove himself to you directly and you have already heard the testimony of several Christians. If you are unconvinced God exists, you are unconvinced.

As to, politicians, educators and others imposing their beliefs. I don't know what to say. There will always be people of power and influence making big decisions that impact hundreds of lives. Those people will have a belief system of some sort or other and will act according to their beliefs, for good or for ill. Your own posts reveal that you have very strong views on the moral value of truth. That is a belief in of itself.

Obviously, I believe Christianity offers a good foundation of morals for society. An atheist would disagree. I accept that.

If you are unhappy with Christian influence on today's culture and society, It's up to atheists or humanists, I suppose, to find an alternative moral framework for society to live by, and convince decision makers to use their moral framework instead of Christian teaching.

(I haven't come to a fully thought out position on new earth/old earth/intelligent design - still working on that one. For now it's enough for me to know God created the heavens and the earth)

Your god isn’t doing a very good job in the uk, less than half the population list themselves as Christian.