Does Christian apologetics encourage people to be dishonest ?

[RedTagAlan]

I think it does, certainly the US version anyway.

Apologetics trains people to ignore scientific evidence presented to them. To handwave it away, and to make contorted non logical arguments in support of their belief in the Bible. Because the Bible can't be wrong.

An example here.

Global Evidences of the Genesis Flood | Answers in Genesis

"Fossils are one of the best evidences of a global flood, especially where many fossils are found. For example, we don’t find marine creatures, such as fish, clams, and corals, buried and fossilized on the sea floor where they once lived. Instead, we find most of them buried in sedimentary rocks on the continents, even on high mountains. For that to happen, the ocean waters had to totally flood the continents. And that’s exactly what the Bible describes during the global flood."

The above quote from that site was written by a Dr Andrew Snelling. Who has a PHD in..... geology. Please read the article to get the full gist. Almost every logical fallacy is in there, including outright dishonesty.

This is a big industry, with colleges and university courses etc, and I think that ironically, teaching people to ignore evidence, and to use dishonest debate methods, is destructive to society. Because it teaches people to lie in support of their theology, and perhaps more importantly, it teaches them to ignore political lies at election time, and to vote for the candidate who says "God".

What do folk think ? Agree or disagree?

@RedTagAlan Does Christian apologetics encourage people to be dishonest ?

How do you feel it has encouraged you to be dishonest?

What do folk think ? Agree or disagree?

Can't speak for other folk, but for me, I disagree.

Because it teaches people to ignore evidence, and basically to lie.

For example, re the quote from Answers in Genesis above, and the article. We know why sea fossils are at the top of mountains. Continental plates drift, collide, and what was the sea floor before, is now at the top of mountains. But the article makes out it was because of a Biblical flood.

There is no evidence for the biblical Noahs flood. It never happened. So that author is being dishonest.

I agree OP.
Its a certain evangelical brand of Christianity .

Of course there was a flood - isn't there a very thick mud layer? But it took place around the Mediterranean basin, so it covered the known world at the time, ie the Med and the Middle East, rather than the whole globe. The problem here, as so often when looking at the Bible, is people not using their common sense, not knowing the context, or not reading between the lines.

YEC apologetics say it was a global flood. Not local.

Quote from the link :

"We find ammonite fossils (squids with coiled shells) in limestone layers, high up in the Himalayas in Nepal, near the top of Mount Everest. Of course, Mount Everest wasn’t there before the flood, so the ocean waters didn’t have to rise to over 29,000 feet (8,840 m) above current sea level to cover it. Instead, the sedimentary layers now making up the Himalayas were first deposited on the continent during the flood. The layers buckled and uplifted at the end of the flood to form the towering Himalayan mountains we see today.

This is a PHD in geology writing this. He is saying this happened about 5k years ago.

When someone has an ingrained belief, they will never accept any evidence which contradicts their belief system. People do not like to be told they are wrong. They will just find a way to twist evidence-based science to support their belief instead. There is no point in trying to reason with people like that.

Or, some might put it another way: you can't argue with stupid.

Equally, YECs will say that those who ignore the literal word of the Bible and are, instead, reading between the lines, picking and choosing, and holding their own interpretation over God's word are lacking common sense and are not true believers.

To a certain extent I can see their point of view: if you read the Bible and decide that what it says isn't what it means, then why pay attention to any of it?

I don’t think all apologetics does. People can be wrong. People can be deluded. That doesn’t mean apologetics is intrinsically encouraging people to be dishonest.

Are you starting from the position, ‘the bible can’t be right because there is no God.’?

I think I know the one! The Mediterranean was closed to the sea for a long period and it separated to near the current narrow gap between Spain and Africa almost in a single stroke. So yeap, the lands that were there got flooded in a period of a few months. There are still marks at the bottom, where the sediment was pushed aside. But it was million of years ago! And I have not heard of any other such flood.

I am atheist yes. Ex born again for 20 years plus.

But my post is about the possible dishonesty of Christian apologetics, not about if a God exists. I think apologetics trains people to lie in defense of their faith, in the face of evidence.

Evolution for example is an established fact. But apologetics teaches people not accept it, and go with Adam and Eve.

I think some people may use it to try and back up ‘Adam and Eve’. I don’t think it actually does.

I suppose Apologetics is only going to be as good as the people who are practising it. If they are deluded, their arguments will be too.
For example the flood example referencing the Mediterranean is, as far as I’m aware, a reasonable explanation for the flood myths found in many cultures. It’s ‘reasonable’ apologetics. Sea creatures on the tops of mountains is deluded. That isn’t the fault of the concept of apologetics.

I find a bit intolerant going around calling people dishonest so casually. Nobody knows what is in somebody's mind when they have formed their thoughts.

You called me this sometimes one case was by simply stating that the Parables could me a symbolic truth/story and a moral truth. Guess what they can be both when it refers to religion and you claimed it was dishonest etc This is OTT and some people in the real life could send a writ for libel for this.

However, you do not often reveal your thoughts when you ask questions and later do. Some may say this is not being transparent.

You seem to assume that Christianity can you make dishonest. Telling lies is not something that I follow and do.

I think there can be academic mature Bible criticism discussion and it can be respective to faith to. People are entited to have their faith. You don't want it and that is your right.

Your unapologetic link was a doozy, @RedTagAlan. I started off thinking "Oh, no, they STILL haven't discovered plate tectonics and orogeny?" Then you said he's got a doctorate in geology! I actually burst into gales of laughter.

I suppose they do geology degrees at those weird Christian universities in America. This must surely be the explanation for your later revelation that he does understand orogeny after all, while also proclaiming it happened after the mythical Flood less than 6k years ago.

I'd almost like to ask him what makes him think there aren't any fossils in the sea bed, but talking to him would probably kill my remaining faith in humanity stone dead.

Fwiw, there have of course been severe floods all over the world. Climate change will do that. However, the last time the Earth was almost entirely covered by water was 3 billion years ago, in the Archaean era. The atmosphere was mostly methane, no oxygen. This global ocean's life comprised bacteria and prokaryotes - individually tiny, they formed large colonies or mats which did leave fossils.

We should start a religion based on Alice in Wonderland, using excerpts from its own text to prove it's all true. Or maybe the Wizard of Oz? We could have so much fun proving that the Wizard really is real, and the story of the little man behind the curtain is a metaphor 🧙‍♂️

Not all christians take the bible literally

Not a weird Christian University.

"Dr. Andrew Snelling holds a PhD in geology from the University of Sydney, Australia. Dr. Snelling is active in research, writing and also speaking on topics such as the flood, fossils, the Grand Canyon, and the radioactive dating of rocks."

Source- his bio:

Dr. Andrew Snelling | Answers in Genesis

But I don't mean this thread to be about individuals or specific organizations. Although Answers in Genesis (AIG) is of note, because they want their "version" taught in schools- worldwide. AIG is a $40 million revenue org (tax free), with about 400 employees.

This is not a bunch of flat earthers making badly produced youtube videos. This is a slick corporate entity, that in my view, is trying to teach people to ignore evidence, and basically be dishonest.

Of course. And I am not talking about all Christians. I am talking about an industry that have an extreme view of their religion.

I do not think it is intolerant to not want people (esp kids) to be taught how to be basically dishonest about evidence. I have no issue with religion for any individual adult. I do not think kids should be indoctrinated to see science as bad.

Sample article here, from an economics journal :

Evolution vs. Creationism in the Classroom: The Lasting Effects of Science Education* | The Quarterly Journal of Economics | Oxford Academic (oup.com)

Note the introduction :

"Anti-scientific attitudes can impose substantial costs on public health, the environment, and the economy. Misinformation about the danger of COVID-19 and a lack of trust in scientists have undermined compliance with social distancing measures and vaccination recommendations, prolonging the pandemic (Bursztyn et al. 2020; Algan et al. 2021; Brzezinski et al. 2021; Jin et al. 2021). Climate change denial has reduced the support for policies cutting greenhouse gas emissions, contributing to environmental and economic damage (Akter, Bennett, and Ward 2012; Linden et al. 2015). The rejection of evolution theory has been used to justify white supremacy and racism in the United States (Marks 2012) and has contributed to anti-scientific agricultural policies and associated food shortages in the former Soviet Union (Graham 2016).about:blank 1 While there is broad understanding of the societal costs of anti-scientific attitudes, evidence on its determinants is surprisingly scant despite the relevance for effective policy responses."

What I am saying is that teaching people to be dishonest about scientific evidence is bad for society as a whole.

And I would say that a sect of extreme religious people dismissing science, and teaching people to do so, are the ones being intolerant. Intolerant of science.

Check this link for apologetics course in the US.

2026 Best Online Masters in Apologetics Programs (mydegreeguide.com)

Note at the bottom of that article, suggested careers:

Careers Annual Median Salaries
K-12 Education Administrators $98,420
Postsecondary Education Administrators $96,910
Postsecondary Philosophy and Religion Teachers $77,610
Social and Community Service Manager s$74,000
Writers and Authors $69,510
Historians $63,940
High School Teachers — Private Schools $56,510
Clergy $49,720
Religious Activities and Education Directors $46,980
Religious Workers, All Other $37,500

See how far down the list clergy is. This is an industry about indoctrination, About teaching anti science. Pastoral care, to provide ministers and preachers to administer to religious believers is well down the list.

That's shocking! Dr Snelling is dishonest, then.

The University of Sydney offers PhD studies in geosciences, including Climate and Environmental Change: the intricate co-evolution of life and physical processes over billions of years of Earth history, and integrating holistic modelling approaches with long-term environmental records spanning decades to epochs, we delve into our planet's evolutionary history.

It doesn't seem to offer a PhD in 'Geology'. Even if it did, Snelling doesn't appear to meet the criteria for a first-year student, who is expected to understand the origin of our planet and its evolution across geological time through the complex interaction between the deep Earth, plate tectonics, surface processes, ancient climates and biological evolution.

It should disown him.

Good find.

To me, its basically like the tobacco industry rolling out scientists to say smoking is not bad to health.

To be clear, I am not against religion. But many Apologetics groups wants their version to be taught as fact.

Here is one of their flagships.

Ark Encounter | Answers in Genesis

Note how it is geared for school groups. And wow, their version of this has dinosaurs.

I think you would effectively need to go to a faith school to get all the Abrahamic faiths of the syllabus. Three faiths at least share the flood story in the world. Christanity, Islam and Judaism. Your issue is with three faiths and not just with the Christian faith.
It is a parents right if they choose to send their children to a faith school. You are still taught science in a faith school. I don't know what is on the syllabus for schools not a faith school. Perhaps they will get a taste of the different world religions.
We did physics, biology and chemistry in a faith school and geography to. Geology was not taught. The Big theory does not rule out there being a creator God. I am very pleased with the education that I had at a faith school.

There is no evidence for the biblical Noahs flood. It never happened.

No evidence does not automatically equate to something never happened.

You are so right

The list isn’t about importance of the various roles, or the numbers of people needed, though right? It’s not a subjective value statement or anything.

I don’t disagree with your disquiet. I just dislike your framing of the problem.

There is definite evidence the earth has not been totally flooded in the last 5k years. The existence of land animals for one thing.

What is wrong with my framing ?

This is an industry churning out teachers who teach kids the Bible is the literal truth, and to do that they have to be dishonest.