Christian Spiritualism

[rosesaredeadvioletsaretoo]

I’m wanting to find out more about Christian Spiritualism and was wondering if anyone might have an recommendations for resources/books/courses/groups and so on?

@Sorciere1 Are you using the example of King Saul consulting the witch of Endor as a reason why Christians can be spiritualists?

I accept the Leadership of Jesus Christ

Interesting they use the word leadership here, rather than divinity.

I believe that all forms of life...evolve until perfection is attained.

Well that's a New Age statement if ever I heard one!

Actually what you’re presenting there is an English translation of Luke, with a modern understanding of the term “ghost”. I’m actually reading a very interesting book by Peter Ackroyd at the moment that details English ghost stories which see the change in both the presentation and indeed reaction to ghosts over the last few hundred years and how this changes across time and geography even within post Reformation England.

But what we’re doing is going even further back in time and moving even further afield geographically, with the addition of dealing with a different language- ancient written a scholarly Greek.

The word used by Like here was, of course, not “ghost” but the Greek “pneuma” likely meaning either “air” or “Spirit” in this context.

There’s actually quite a bit of scholarly debate around this part of Luke. And many think Luke was being deliberately vague within the context of Greco-Roman literature dealing with what they thought of as ghosts and indeed gods, particularly the classification of Ghosts.

Luke 24:36 et seq is saying that the appearance is that of Jesus rather than a spirit in my view looking at the original Greek.

Luke 24:36 et seq is saying that the appearance is that of Jesus rather than a spirit in my view looking at the original Greek.

@Feelingathomenow That was Agile's point though. Jesus was not a ghost - after the resurrection He ate and they could touch Him, something that wouldn't be possible if Jesus was merely a spirit.

Re Lazarus this was really begging on necromancy.

Given the spirit of Lazarus had departed, presumably Jesus would have had to summon Lazarus’ spirit and communicate with him for the purpose of resurrecting him.

Given the argument we are all Christ then it’s hard to see why he had the authority to do this and no one else ever would.

Given the argument we are all Christ

Says who? @Feelingathomenow

...why he had the authority to do this and no one else ever would.

Because He is God!

Also @Feelingathomenow Lazarus wasn't resurrected, he was brought back to life. Jesus is the only one to be resurrected (so far).

Yes, the point is Jesus wasn’t a πνεῦμα pneuma - a disembodied spirit also translated as ‘ghost’. He was in His resurrected body.

To state
“You could argue Jesus was a ghost and people were talking to him.”
is clearly an erroneous argument as scripture makes it plain that Jesus clearly was not a disembodied spirit (aka ghost) when He met with, talked to, was touched by and ate with the disciples.

“Given the argument we are all Christ …”

No. I’m not accepting that argument.

The Messiah is One Man, the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth. We are most certainly not all Him.

*edited for typo

I'm pointing out that plenty of things are 'forbidden' in the Bible or permitted and then people do them or forbid them when it suits them, like Saul going to the Witch of Endor.
Like divorce and abortion.The New Testament says no. In the Old Testament, men had multiple wives and in Israel until the 1970s Sephardic Jews from Arab countries could have multiple wives. Until that was finally forbidden.
Reading the bible is quite subversive! I remember really liking Queen Jezebaal and her worship of Asherah.

@Sorciere1 But it was still forbidden - by God - when Saul visited the witch. The fallout from that was catastrophic and resulted in his death.

I'm not sure why anyone would be on Jezebel's side. She led the Israelites to sacrifice their babies in the most horrific way.

Well that’s my interpretation. Why do you think he is the only son of God?

I think you’ve misinterpreted the question.

Actually in Ancient Greece there were a number of names for ghosts none of which was Pneuma. What the scripture is saying is that Jesus is solid and not air. None of which excludes Jesus bring a ghost.

Like much of the Jewish religion there is a hard line in distinguishing it from Assyria/Mesopotamia/Babylon which is where the narrative to not speak with the dead/bring them back to life is based as many of their stories inc parts of the epic of Gilgamesh included that.

The meaning of resurrect is literally to restore a person back to life so yes Lazarus was resurrected

In perhaps the most well known verse in the entire Bible the Lord Jesus said,

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

the word μονογενής : monogenēs translated here as “only begotten” can also be translated “one and only” conveys the meaning of uniqueness, one of a kind.

Those who have trusted in Christ, who have received Him as Lord and Saviour, have become sons and daughters of God, born of the Spirit by grace, through faith. We are individuals among many similar individuals.

“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
John 1:12-13

Unlike us (creatures) Jesus Christ is God, the Son (the Creator) in relationship with the Father from eternity,

“ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
John 1:1-3

Lazarus was raised not resurrected. He died again.

The first resurrection (Revelation 20: 5-6) has not yet occurred - except for the solitary First-fruits (1 Corinthians 15: 20) of it, the Lord Jesus.

When the resurrection happens, on the Last Day (John 6: 39,40,44,54) Lazarus will rise too, along with all the saints of God in bodies which will never again experience death or decay.

Yes - I can certainly see that!! I’ve come at it rather naively!

Yes I did, bloomin autocorrect. Thank you for correcting.. But isn’t it interesting how the entire meaning can change with one simple letter incorrectly placed. I mean goodnes knows what has happened over the years with monks copying out works by hand in dim candle light from Greek to Latin to say English.,Makes you think……

Well, we could get into a discussion now about how the majority of the Bible is not really completely following the teachings of Christ, how much of Christian beliefs and practices were shaped by men (and yes it is the result of the patriarchy - women have, for the majority of Christianity’s history, been screwed, contrary to the teachings of Jesus). How most modern “Christians” are actually worshippers of the Jewish mystic “Paul”, a man with an agenda (and most likely mental health issues). We could discuss the extra biblical gospels. Or what about the non- Jewish/Christian origins of many of their stories..

We could discuss the reason Christianity didn’t become an extinct cult when it appeared not that long ago in terms of human history.

If Jesus came back today and saw all of these non- Jews claiming to be following his teachings, he probably wouldn’t recognise much of it at all. He would probably watch The Life of Brian and think “Well at least someone gets it”

I would argue perhaps the most well known quote, one which certainly up to the last few decades every school child knew is “OUR Father who art in heaven” literally the words of Jesus. If someone is my Father I am his child on that basis we are all the children of God.

The idea of God upduffing Mary seems a bit of a late comer (if you’ll pardon the pun). There seems much more evidence of God being our Father in Jesus’s words so I’m happy to go with that.

John 1:12-13 does very nicely illustrate this point that we are the same as Jesus in that we become children of God in exactly the same way as Jesus.

The Word reflects the belief in Hebrew of the sacred creative power of letters. God spoke the world into being “God said ‘Let there be light’ and there was light” etc. Once God spoke the thought became separate to him. Once we are created by him we become separate to him. It’s effectively showing the creation of a new world. God created everything through letters/words in accordance with the Hebrew view, that would include us, his children.

But anyway, we have detailed the OPs thread enough. Let’s return to the question which was originally asked about Christian Spiritualism. - so unless you’re a Levite, it’s perfectly fine to speak with the dead. There’s numerous examples in the bible of things seemingly banned being OK if done on the name of God. I’m thinking esp about dream interpretation, interpretation of symbols and signs etc.

Derailed not detailed

@Feelingathomenow, yes, but to clarify, correct me if I'm wrong, strictly speaking, you're not speaking from a Christian perspective are you? That is you don't adhere to the more orthodox Christian teachings with regard to your view of right and wrong. You have more of an esoteric, more Gnostic perspective?

Do I identify with the twisted message the established church presents of the teachings of Jesus, the doctrine they have used for the last 1700 years to control people, especially women - not bloody likely. Why? When even a quick reading of the OT and gospels will tell a different story

A couple of months ago I found myself in a Sunday morning Eucharist service in an average village CofE church for one reason or another. Thought - oh this is nice, some hymns, about 25 people, good choir and organist - even went and had some bread and wine. But there was a fly in the ointment 1Timothy 2:11-15 which was the bible reading of the day

11 A womana] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;b]she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But womenc] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Kind of put me off my cup of tea at the end. Paul, for me (which let’s face it is the main driver of what we know as small o orthodox Christianity) is a problem, a major problem!