Euthanasia conflict

[Patternedwallpaper]

Hi all,

Been trying to pick a church recently. I was raised C of E but feel it's not for me now and was going to try another. Found one I like, but it is against homosexuality, abortion and euthanasia. They are friendly and welcoming to everyone no matter what the circumstances, but just believe all 3 are wrong. I dont necessarily; i think i can square my feelings about abortion and homosexuality, but I just cant see the problem with euthanasia when a very old or ill person is suffering :(

Does anyone else have this conflict? Can you tell me your thoughts/experiences? What are the compelling religious arguments against euthanasia?

My dad was very physically disabled, but very switched on. His view was that it's a very slippery slope and it minimises his contribution to society and the value of his life. I agree, who are we to decide who lives or dies and if we start, when or where do we end. It's a personal choice and that's the way it should be, not a blanket acceptance.

Looking at the bigger picture, thankfully the laws of the land here aren’t based on one of the many belief systems whereby a ‘God’ not only exists, but sets rules by which to live.

I think our British laws are based on a Christian tenet - but I understand what you're saying @SunnyWavess

From the position of an atheist, if one was to decide to follow a faith and live by the rules of that faith, how would someone decide which religion to follow? There are so many and so many different interpretations that if they were going to follow a religion they want to make sure it’s the correct one but it’s difficult when the religious are all different…

Yep! I get it. I guess that's why a lot of folk for for a 'pick and mix' way. For me, I've made sure mine is the 'correct' God as He's the only one made flesh in Christ Jesus.

It’s fine for you to disagree with it. You can live by any beliefs you want but you cant enforce your gods word on everyone.

Agreed. But it's interesting to chat about it. 🙂I reckon I'm blessed to live within a country that is not ruled by religion - I feel for my fellow human beings in the world who do not have that privilege/freedom.

I reckon I'm blessed to live within a country that is not ruled by religion - I feel for my fellow human beings in the world who do not have that privilege/freedom.

Amen

Absolutely. I grew up in Ireland where the Catholic Church had too much power. We were terrified of what God could do to us. Thank goodness that’s all changed now and people have more freedom from that dogma

It's a blessing. It caused untold suffering especially to women and girls.

In UK law a foetus doesn’t have rights.

More's the pity and the law is an ass.

Many Christians believe that a wife obeys her husband, she is led by him and she submits to him.

So do I, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

This has been used by some church leaders to pressure women to stay in abusive relationships.

This is the sort of behaviour that happens within cults. None of my lovely church leaders would be doing this and it would be contrary to biblical teaching if any of them did.

I see you didn't quote Ephesians verse 24 onwards (presumably because it doesn't fit your narrative).

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendour, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Abortion, like euthanasia is false compassion.

@oopsygossypiboma

More's the pity and the law is an ass.

It's not a pity for victims of rape, those unable to care for children, those for whom childbirth is dangerous and for those who cannot care for a child with complex needs. It's also not an ass for those who believe in human rights.

So do I, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.

I'd be interested to hear what your interpretation is.

This is the sort of behaviour that happens within cults. None of my lovely church leaders would be doing this and it would be contrary to biblical teaching if any of them did.

Christianity has only relatively recently allowed divorce. Some Christian countries outlawed divorce and some still do. I'm afraid that some church leaders pressure women to stay in abusive marriages, women also live in cultures where divorce is seen as a sin and they also believe it's wrong.

I understand that for you, Christianity only exists according to your own personal experience and interpretation. There are over a billion Christians and they don't all behave in the same way as your lovely church leaders or community. Many live in very different cultures where Christian dogma is strictly adhered to often backed up by the law and society.

The Bible is very clear about the submission of women to men. This teaching has been used for centuries to subjugate women and to control them.

Here are some further examples:

Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives,

Genesis 3:16
To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you."

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Peter 3:1-6
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious. For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, ...

Titus 2:5
To be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Peter 3:5
For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands,

Colossians 3:18-19
Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35
The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

1 Peter 3:1-2
Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct.

Titus 2:4-5
And so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Corinthians 7:4
For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.

Abortion, like euthanasia is false compassion.

I don't believe in the legalization of euthanasia.

@oopsygossypiboma

I just wanted to add regarding Christianity and divorce, although civil law may be accepted, Church law in Catholicism does not recognise divorce although a marriage can be annulled under certain circumstances. Some denominations are more accepting of divorce than others but for many, marriage is a sacred lifetime union and it is wrong to divorce.

There are exceptional circumstances for divorce in the Bible which are adultery and desertion. Some church leaders encourage women to reconcile and submit to their husbands.

https://catholictimescolumbus.org/news/keith-f-luscher/divorce-and-the-church-debunking-myths

The Matrimonial Causes Act was introduced in England and Wales in 1857. But divorce, as known today, was generally allowed in Western Europe after the 10th Century. (Hardly recent).

The Bible is very clear about the submission of women to men.

Not so fast!

Colossians 3

…Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.

1 Peter 3

…Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honour to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

1 Corinthians 11

…Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman.

Titus 2:5

Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity,* *and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us.

1 Corinthians 7:4
(Continue with the rest of the verse)

…Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

1 Timothy 2 and Corinthians 14:34-35

The author of these letters, Paul, is giving instructions around orderly worship to a group in the early church known for their raucous and immoral behaviour and ignorance of the Scriptures.

https://www.logos.com/grow/nook-the-corinthian-church/

Genesis 3:16

https://www.cbeinternational.org/resource/legacy-pain-analysis-genesis-316a/

Galatians 3:28...
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

You'll always find what you're looking for when you take Bible verses completely out of context.

You'll always find what you're looking for when you take Bible verses completely out of context

You’re right about that but that works both ways. From the perspective of a non religious person, the whole book is taken out of context.

Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and Ricky Gervais are great at explaining the position of an atheist and why the bible has been taken out of context….

@oopsygossypiboma

The Matrimonial Causes Act was introduced in England and Wales in 1857. But divorce, as known today, was generally allowed in Western Europe after the 10th Century. (Hardly recent).

Right. What I mean by divorce is relatively recent is that's it's relatively recent in Christian countries for example, Argentina 1987, Brazil 1977, Chile 2004, Ireland 1995 and Italy 1970. Again, it's not recognised in Catholicism and only under strict circumstances in many other denominations.

I'm not sure what the relevance of your quotes are. Mine were in order to emphasise the subjugation of women in Christianity. Christian misogyny severely restricted women's lives, reducing them to wives and mothers, as the helpmates of men:

"Woman was merely man’s helpmate, a function which pertains to her alone. She is not the image of God but as far as man is concerned, he is by himself the image of God.”
— Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius

As I explained earlier, the view of women as inferior was due to interpretations of the creation myths, where Eve was blamed for original sin, as such:

"Every woman should be filled with shame and thought that she is a woman."Saint Clement of Alexandria

Christianity also created the Virgin/Whore dichotomy where women were either submissive and chaste or evil seductresses. Indeed Martin Luther viewed all women as either wives or prostitutes:

"The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes."

The Christian idea of marriage creating one flesh, led to the law of coverture which stripped married women of basic human rights as their identity became subsumed with their husbands.
1.

It's not a pity for victims of rape, those unable to care for children, those for whom childbirth is dangerous and for those who cannot care for a child with complex needs.

I had written a very lengthy post responding to your first few points but it failed to load, so I won’t be repeating it.
Mercifully, these make up a very small percentage of cases. For the most part, support (both practical and psychological) is available to help mitigate the impact of these unfortunate circumstances and ultimately having the child placed for adoption is a possibility.

It’s also not an ass for those who believe in human rights

Unborn babies are humans too.

I understand that for you, Christianity only exists according to your own personal experience and interpretation.

That is incorrect. I can’t take responsibility for everyone in the world who claims to be a Christian. Many are called, few are chosen (Matt. 22:14). You will know them by their fruits (Matt. 7:16).
Just as your average vegan on the street isn’t a militant activist, vandalising farms and most Muslims do not commit atrocities in the name of Allah, most Christians are not abusive, misogynistic bigots.
It’s like reading in the news that a Welshman raped his wife and coming to the conclusion that all Welshmen must be rapists.
Here's a little more info on marital rape from a Christian perspective.

https://www.gotquestions.org/spousal-rape.html

I don't believe in the legalization of euthanasia.

I made the comparison because that‘s what the thread is supposed to be about. I think we’ve derailed it enough now. Having re-read the OP, it looks like @Patternedwallpaper is ok with the church’s general stance on the other two topics - I think I can square my feelings about abortion and homosexuality, but I just cant see the problem with euthanasia.

I...have tried telling you what is true, but you continue to believe you know better. Indeed.

This was in the context of you attempting to mansplain Christianity to me.

…Saint Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius

I have no idea who this guy was but he’s no more of an authority on the Bible than me, or a child sitting at the back of church. Please look into Protestantism.

Christian misogyny severely restricted women's lives . Christianity also created the Virgin/Whore dichotomy. The Christian idea of marriage creating one flesh, led to the law of coverture

Those are some very sweeping statements. Even if they were true, it would be man made, man centric religion did that. Big difference.

Forgot to add @cupcaske123

I'm not sure what the relevance of your quotes are.

If you read the entire verse, instead of lifting sentences so they no longer make any sense, you should start to see the bigger picture. Men and women are different, but equal. Submission does not imply inferiority.

Try the Quakers. Lovely people on the whole and very tolerant.

Mercifully, these make up a very small percentage of cases.

That's actually not true and I doubt you have the evidence to back that up.

In Poland for example, they introduced a near total abortion ban including for foetal abnormalities, the reason for 98% of abortion cases. In November 2021, a woman died at 22 weeks pregnant from sepsis which could have been prevented. I'm sure you know about the famous case in Ireland in 2012 where an Indian woman Savita Halappanavar died of sepsis as they wouldn't abort.

Regarding rape, we don't actually have statistics for how many rapes there are as it's rarely reported. You therefore don't know how many pregnancies are because of rape.

Abortion is completely prohibited in 24 countries which encompasses 90 million women of reproductive age. The hardline laws in El Salvador, which were introduced in 1998 after campaigning from conservative sectors of the Catholic Church, have led to dozens of women being found guilty of “aggravated homicide,” even in cases of miscarriage.

There have been cases in the States of 10 year old rape victims having to travel to another state to get an abortion and prominent pro life activists pronouncing how she should have been forced to have the pregnancy as women's bodies are made for childbirth.

In August 2020, under President Bolsonaro, a Health Ministry regulation was introduced that requires medical professionals to collect evidence and report to the police anyone who seeks legal termination of a pregnancy after rape—which activists believe is to dissuade rape survivors.

For the most part, support (both practical and psychological) is available to help mitigate the impact of these unfortunate circumstances and ultimately having the child placed for adoption is a possibility.

I'm afraid that's simply not true although it's a nice idea. For those who have died due to problems in pregnancy that's obviously no use. In many countries where abortion is either banned or severely restricted there are limited resources and you are expected to simply get on with it.

Unborn babies are humans too.
We've already had this discussion. A foetus cannot survive autonomously ie outside the womb. It goes against human rights law to force a pregnancy. Your concern for human rights seem subjective.

I have no idea who this guy was but he’s no more of an authority on the Bible than me, or a child sitting at the back of church. Please look into Protestantism.

Unfortunately Saints, scholars and Latin Fathers have made an indelible mark on Christianity, interpretations of the Bible and the way women are viewed and treated. I understand that from your perspective, these people don't matter but they've mattered for centuries and are still studied and revered in the Church.

Those are some very sweeping statements. Even if they were true, it would be man made, man centric religion did that. Big difference.

Am I to understand that you don't believe Christianity and its teaching has affected the way women have been treated? After all, Christianity governed our laws, culture, philosophy and society for centuries and still does in many countries in the world but in your opinion, it hasn't encroached upon women.

You've never encountered the Mary/Eve dichotomy, written about for centuries and made famous by Freud. Nor thought that laws made governing women's lives would be influenced by a doctrine commanding submission of women to men.

Christianity is phallocentric, it's a patriarchal religion.

If you read the entire verse, instead of lifting sentences so they no longer make any sense, you should start to see the bigger picture. Men and women are different, but equal. Submission does not imply inferiority.

Being commanded to obey, submit and be led by implies inferiority. The Bible is very clear in that women are not equal to men, they submit to men because man is made in the image of God. Women were cursed by God to be lorded over by men.

If women and men are different but equal - where are the female priests, bishops, cardinals and preachers? Why is there no female Pope? Why are nuns serving priests in the Vatican? Why aren't all Christian countries a utopia of equality? Where are the libraries full of the scholarly research written by women Christians?

You have a very narrow and discriminatory view of Christians @cupcaske123 and this will be my final reply.

In Poland for example, they introduced a near total abortion ban including for foetal abnormalities, the reason for 98% of abortion cases.

A quick Google shows this is currently not true for England, Wales and Scotland

Around 200,000 abortions are carried out in England and Wales each year and just under 14,000 in Scotland; the most common reason cited under the ICD-10 classification system for around 98% of all abortions is "risk to woman's mental health."

Across the United Kingdom, abortion is permitted on the grounds of:

• risk to the life of the pregnant woman;
• preventing grave permanent injury to her physical or mental health;
• risk of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family (up to a term limit of 24 weeks of gestation); or
• substantial risk that, if the child were born, they would "suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped".

The third ground is typically interpreted liberally with regards to mental health to create a de facto elective abortion service; 98% of the approximately quarter-million abortions performed in Great Britain are done so for that reason.

Abortion is wrong - no ifs, buts or maybes. If it's immoral to murder a toddler because you can no longer look after them, or they've been found to have a disability or terminal illness, or you've developed terrible post natal depression, then it's immoral to murder them while they're still in the womb.

@oopsygossypiboma It's been great chatting with you, you take care.

You too @cupcaske123