Euthanasia conflict

[Patternedwallpaper]

Hi all,

Been trying to pick a church recently. I was raised C of E but feel it's not for me now and was going to try another. Found one I like, but it is against homosexuality, abortion and euthanasia. They are friendly and welcoming to everyone no matter what the circumstances, but just believe all 3 are wrong. I dont necessarily; i think i can square my feelings about abortion and homosexuality, but I just cant see the problem with euthanasia when a very old or ill person is suffering :(

Does anyone else have this conflict? Can you tell me your thoughts/experiences? What are the compelling religious arguments against euthanasia?

It's a human right to have autonomy over your own body and to have consensual sex.

"What are the compelling religious arguments against euthanasia?

** Commandment number 6 - You shall not kill. I think that covers it."

Well, there's the answer to the OP. The Bible does not usually (or ever?) provide a "why" to accompany each instruction. Some reasons can be guessed at- eg all the stuff about shellfish and mouldy interior walls was probably to do with public health- but ultimately if you keep asking why, why, but why, it just comes down to circular referencing the Bible, and in the end, something similar to my exasperated mum when I was being an annoyingly pedantic child and quibbling with her in an authority-questioning type way.
"Because it just is!" for the "But why is the sky blue?" type questions when I was too young to understand the science or she didn't know herself, and "Because I said so! Now go and tidy your room" if she caught the whiff of insubordination.

I think faith in god- of any religion- is a sort of grand scale, cosmic "If you know what's good for you, you'll do as you're told and remember : "Mummy knows best" (well in the case of religion, God the Father knows best - preferred pronouns He/His; the capitalisation and masculine form of the pronouns reinforcing the perceived competence and authority of the supreme being.

When I say youngsters, I mean 18 - 30 year olds. All able to think for themselves and passionate about Jesus and His teachings.

A church in the nearest town (outside London) which seats 1500 people, holds two services every Sunday.

The Church as a whole has been enjoying a revival in recent years, across denominations. Church attendance is up in the C of E too - Overall, all-age weekly attendance at Church of England churches rose to 685,000 last year (2023), from 654,000 in 2022, an increase of 4.7 per cent. The number of children attending weekly increased from 87,000 in 2022 to 92,000 (up 5.7 per cent).

From the status of Global Christianity Report.
The number of Christians worldwide is expected to climb from more than 2.52 billion to 2.63 billion, a 1.08% growth. The Christian population is projected to top 3 billion before 2050. While Christianity is growing as a whole, certain branches are experiencing even more growth. Protestants (1.63%), independents (1.96%), evangelicals (1.66%), and Pentecostal/charismatics (1.48%) are the fastest-growing groups.
The number of global Protestants is expected to climb to more than 625 million this year. Evangelicals number more than 400 million. Pentecostals continue to experience rapid growth, climbing from less than a million in 1900 to projections of topping a billion by 2050.

oopsygossypiboma · 12/08/2024 19:29
Why do you believe killing our most vulnerable - babies and ill people - is ever ok?

If someone is in terrible pain and distress and wants it to end, who the bloody hell do you think you are to tell them they can’t?

Nobody is preventing that.

Forbidding contraception, abortion and homosexuality prevent that.

Was there a point in there or are you just ranting?

Yes there is a point- I was pointing out that your post directly and I think correctly answered the OP's question.

It's down to the individual to choose whether or not to do something. The Church teaches what is right or wrong, according to the Word of God. If the individual is a Christian they would be wise to listen and refrain from doing whatever it is they know is wrong. However, we all have free will and forgiveness is available for those who truly repent.

Great, thanks, I thought you were poking fun.

She was asking about "compelling religious arguments". The compulsion bit is covered by the name of those ten rules. They are the Commandments. Not the guidelines, not the further reading list in the appendix, not the side quest for bonus points or "serving suggestion" recipe.

As for argument- the point of religion is that there is no argument. Like in the show pony world of yore. Judge's decision is final. If any exhibitor disputes the Judge's decision, no discussion shall be entered into. The exhibitor may, at the discretion of the Judge and Stewards, be required to leave the arena. There is no appeals process. The entry form states that the competition will be judged according to the rule book and if you pay your money to enter, it's your problem if you don't know the rules or choose not to obey them.

That's a brilliant explanation @powershowerforanhour.

Ideally that would be the case, however as I'm sure you're aware, laws are introduced under the guise of religion for example making homosexuality a criminal offence, outlawing abortion and contraception.

On top of the law, there is community and familial pressure to conform to religious doctrine. Patriarchy and misogyny is ingrained in society and religion can act as a stick to enforce it.

Without legal abortion, women and girls are forced to seek backstreet abortions. In the case of child pregnancy, it can be dangerous for a girl to carry to full term. In the case of rape, women and girls are forced to have children they didn't consent to conceive. Without abortion women are forced to give birth to babies that cannot survive or have complex disabilities they may not be equipped to deal with.

In the case of women who cannot use contraception, where it's either unavailable or outlawed by religion, they are forced to have children they cannot afford which drives them further into poverty. Unable to use condoms, women cannot prevent STDs and HIV.

It's all very well proclaiming from a privileged position in a developed country, that everyone is entitled to choose or deal privately with the consequences. That's not realistic for millions of people who live under the yoke of religion.

American women and girls in states that have banned abortion, have no autonomy over their bodies. My aunt lived in a country where contraception and abortion were banned and had 19 children.

Some people live in a dreamworld.

Down with religion! Religion serves men, not the Lord, and has much to answer for. In that respect I agree with some of your comments. However, the big but - Christianity is not about signing up for a religion. Christianity is about being born into the family of God. It is a relationship. As an aside, I truly hope every single one of her 19 children proved to be a blessing to your aunt.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Christianity-religion-relationship.html

I grew up going to church and definitely believed in god properly but I always had problems with some aspects of sin and punishment. I understand the concept of free will including freedom to sin, and also quite like the "People will be judged according to what they know of God" in other words, as I understand it, if you are an adult of sound mind who has had plenty of access to the Bible then you're going to be held to a higher standard than some kid who was 5 years old and playing in a stream at the far end of the preaching field when the one of the apostles was up the front doing their thing, then got run over and killed by a camel the following week.

I have problems with the punishment in advance thing in Genesis. The notion that it is all Eve's fault- well also Adam, a bit, but mostly Eve- that we're not all still frolicking around in a lovely garden in the nip eating the delicious fruit of 999 out of 1000 trees and happily loving and obeying God . Fair enough that they got the boot - they had one easy job and they fecked it up! but the extra punishment for Eve seemed cruel and unusual, the product of an inventively sadistic mind. That she and all her female descendants would suffer in childbirth, forever. I thought about that while I was vomiting with pain , exhaustion and hyponatremia on a Syntocin drip, and then hoping that my baby and I would be alive after the EMCS that folllowed. All because my great great great times a million granny handed her fuckboy an apple when she was getting one for herself.
Adam's punishment? That he and all his male descendants would have to work for a living, instead of sitting around on the Xbox in their newly donned pants all day. CRY ME A RIVER ADAM (and stuff you, non existent sexist god with your golden boy snivelling about the token punishment you gave him), I thought, as I contemplated going back to, like, work for a living like my mum and granny before me, and my sister, female friends and workmates and presumbly my daughters and everybody else's daughters as well.

Meanwhile objectively, the latest census suggests otherwise. Put it this way, I bet the census from 100 years ago had significantly less people identify as non religious. That’s all they knew. Thankfully things are changing and it’s not a coincidence that’s because of the technological advances and better understanding of the universe 😎

My aunt lost several babies and lived in poverty, she was pregnant for over twenty years. I'm sure, given the choice, she would have had fewer blessings.

Yes, I can imagine she was pregnant for much of her adult life and would rather it not be that way. So, so hard - even moreso if they all lived in poverty. I would hope, for your aunt especially, they would all become a blessing as they reached maturity, rather than the opposite.

I'm sad for you that your lens sees callous. It's a very peculiar interpretation. FWIW, you could not be more wrong.

First post ever under that username @danaohara ... interesting. 😃

Interestingly, the current anti-abortion movement in the US is not wholly fundamental Christianity based, but includes a secular segment of voters who view abortion bans as science based.

Studies showing that a fetus can feel pain by no later than 15 weeks. The fact that we can do corrective surgery and gene therapy on a fetus in the womb, so we already treat the fetus as a seperate “patient” from the mother. That the medical treatment for premature births means even a 20 week old has a 50/50 chance of surviving outside the womb in an incubator.

Modern medical advances has resulted in many Americans thinking not from the old religious standpoint of life begins at conception, therefore abortion is murder but from a modern science based worldview that when a living organism can feel pain at 15 weeks then that is a human being with a right to life. Others point to the heartbeat as to when the fetus becomes a human being with a right to life- thus the heartbeat bills.

If you read the laws, they are not couched in any religious terms whatsoever but draw on modern science to justify abortion bans.

Science is being used as a tool much how religion used to be.

You seem to be mostly arguing against the influence of 'religion' on laws, which is a separate debate entirely. Laws regarding infanticide are rightly in place to protect the innocent.

As I mentioned before, banning contraception has very little, if any, biblical foundation and the cynical part of me would say that there's a good chance the Catholic Church have an obvious agenda there.

Babies conceived under awful circumstances such as rape should not have to suffer due to the actions of the abuser. The abuser should be the one who is punished.

Of course I do @ZingyZebra but taking someone's life is not a solution. If the mother, understandably, can't face bringing up the child then adoption could be considered. The baby is the woman's offspring too.

No, I'm arguing against religions such as Christianity, eliminating a person's right to autonomy.

It's enshrined in human rights law, that human beings have a right to autonomy over their own bodies. Anti abortion law or religious doctrine overrides that right.

You can't simply dismiss the authority and influence of the Catholic Church. It's the largest Christian denomination in the world and its teaching is infused in many cultures.

Whether a religious doctrine is law or not, pressure from communities and family, as well as indoctrination can influence choices you make. For example, a gay person may hide their sexuality for fear of ostracization and in some cultures, punishment.

It's wrong to dismiss someone's autonomy over their own body and force them to give birth. It's also wrong to prevent them from accessing contraception and having a choice over whether or not to conceive. Its wrong to prevent someone from leaving a marriage even if they're subject to abuse.