Euthanasia conflict

[Patternedwallpaper]

Hi all,

Been trying to pick a church recently. I was raised C of E but feel it's not for me now and was going to try another. Found one I like, but it is against homosexuality, abortion and euthanasia. They are friendly and welcoming to everyone no matter what the circumstances, but just believe all 3 are wrong. I dont necessarily; i think i can square my feelings about abortion and homosexuality, but I just cant see the problem with euthanasia when a very old or ill person is suffering :(

Does anyone else have this conflict? Can you tell me your thoughts/experiences? What are the compelling religious arguments against euthanasia?

@cupcaske123

It's wrong to dismiss someone's autonomy over their own body and force them to give birth.

It's wrong to dismiss the bodily autonomy of an unborn baby and force them to die.

It's also wrong to prevent them from accessing contraception and having a choice over whether or not to conceive.

That's one of the reasons holy matrimony exists.
Also, sexual abstinence is 100% effective at preventing pregnancies.

Its wrong to prevent someone from leaving a marriage even if they're subject to abuse.

That's one of the reasons divorce exists.

It's wrong to dismiss the bodily autonomy of an unborn baby and force them to die.

A foetus doesn't initially have bodily autonomy and a foetus doesn't trump someone else's right to life or bodily autonomy.

That's one of the reasons holy matrimony exists.
Also, sexual abstinence is 100% effective at preventing pregnancies.

We're all aware that people have sex outside marriage and contraception prevents the spread of disease and unwanted pregnancy.

Secondly, women don't always have a choice over whether or not to have sex. In many countries marital rape is not a crime and in cultures where Christians obey or are submissive to men, women aren't given a choice. Condoms also prevent transmittable diseases; people don't always stay faithful in marriage.

That's one of the reasons divorce exists.

Divorce among many Christian denominations is unacceptable and there can be a lot of pressure on people to stay in marriages. For Christians in the Philippines and the Vatican, marriage is illegal.

oopsygossypiboma you are doing an awful lot of judging, shouldn't you be reflecting on the plank in your eye?

Hi there, just to cast in my tuppence I do not believe assisted suicide is a good thing and the whole ‘thin end of the wedge’ issue is a valid one. I am a Christian and was a countywide support worker for elderly and disabled adults, I visited a lot of care homes and worked with frail and vulnerable people mostly the very elderly both at home and in care.

It was absolutely heart breaking to hear how many of these beautiful people saw themselves as ‘useless’, ‘a burden’ or worthless drain on society and their loved ones and wished to be dead so that they ‘would not be a burden’ on their families anymore. Decorated war heroes some of them were, and were reduced to crippling depression and lack of self worth due to age, disability and isolation. The non-elderly population would also be at risk, those with mental health disorders/ difficulties who would give up their lives where they otherwise would not have done had they been helped and well. A law that would legalise suicide would effectively be legalised murder, both validating and facilitating the tragic deaths of people who are in need of love, care and support. Not all families would discourage it either, I came across carers (wives, husbands and grown children) who would have actively encouraged it had this been an available option. The depression and self worth was so low it would not have taken much for the vulnerable person to have submitted to assisted suicide. Let’s also not be blind to the greed for inheritances that would fuel corrupt motivations for old granny Jean and grandpa John to ‘end their suffering’ with a mercy killing. People who are depressed and lonely do not need much convincing that they are better off dead.

Do not be fooled by the pleas for enshrining the idea of taking control to end suffering, it is inherently wrong and would be misused, abused and become an open door for legalised murder. A law that would facilitate the exploitation and tragic deaths of the most vulnerable in society is truly evil, but masked as ‘mercy’.

I will also say here that a family friend ended his life via Dignitas not long ago, leaving his grieving family behind. They are broken. He was clinically depressed and was failed by health services who should have helped him get better and save his life. Suicide is devastating whether assisted or not.

Isn't it just human nature to judge stuff all the time? For example, if I hear somebody effing and blinding and calling their toddler a see-you-next-tuesday, yes, I will make judgements on that situation. I would think the parent was a troubled individual at the very least. However my main concern would be for the toddler, who has no voice. If I hear that a woman is about to destroy her unborn baby, I will make the judgement that the woman must be a troubled individual to consider the destruction. However, my main concern would be for the unborn baby who has no voice.

As you've quoted scripture, just to be clear, to make those sorts of assessments are not within the reference of Matt 7:5.

I cannot see that @oopsygossypiboma has on this thread ever claimed to be oh so perfect. Christians are acutely aware of their own imperfections and reflect on them, daily. Christians understand that the Lord God Almighty knows the inner, deepest, darkest secrets of all our hearts.

@Aug12 The God I believe in is loving and forgiving. I do not, and will not, believe that God doesn't love and forgive everyone.

@cupcaske123

A foetus doesn't initially have bodily autonomy and a foetus doesn't trump someone else's right to life or bodily autonomy.

Well, I disagree, so where does that leave us?

We're all aware that people have sex outside marriage and contraception prevents the spread of disease and unwanted pregnancy.

You keep talking about contraception, which I agreed was sensible not to prohibit. Although, all too often abortion is used as an alternative to contraception.

In many countries marital rape is not a crime and in cultures where Christians obey or are submissive to men, women aren't given a choice. Condoms also prevent transmittable diseases; people don't always stay faithful in marriage.

Marital rape has nothing to do with Christianity. In the case of adultery, that is again going against God's law. People make choices and those choices have consequences.

None of the points you've made justify abortion.

Divorce among many Christian denominations is unacceptable

Again, untrue. It is remarriage to someone else afterwards which may be controversial.

For Christians in the Philippines and the Vatican, marriage is illegal.

These areas make up a tiny portion of the globe. It's also unclear what the reasoning behind this is.

oopsygossypiboma you are doing an awful lot of judging, shouldn't you be reflecting on the plank in your eye?

@Lilimoon Don't you worry, I reflect on it all the time, as any good Christian should. There's a difference between judging and stating the truth. I have been doing the latter.

Thanks, I appreciate that @Thegreatestoftheseislove God bless.

You know you've lost an argument when you have to resort to emotional blackmail.

But, surely @Thegreatestoftheseislove, it is not for you or I to judge who is more vulnerable or what is right or wrong in the eyes of God. We, after all, see through a glass darkly.

Well, I disagree, so where does that leave us?
With facts; a foetus has no bodily autonomy because it's not a being capable of surviving autonomously.

You keep talking about contraception, which I agreed was sensible not to prohibit. Although, all too often abortion is used as an alternative to contraception.

I'm talking about bodily autonomy. Catholicism prohibits contraception which prevents bodily autonomy.

Marital rape has nothing to do with Christianity. In the case of adultery, that is again going against God's law. People make choices and those choices have consequences.

People live in cultures with various laws and in some countries marital rape is legal. In that case, women can't practice abstinence as you suggested. In Christianity, a woman is commanded to obey her husband and some Christians interpret that in all ways including sexually. In that case, a woman can't practice abstinence. It isn't fair for a woman to be punished with HIV because she can't use condoms and her husband has been unfaithful.

None of the points you've made justify abortion.

I'm talking about bodily autonomy. I'm sure you agree that forced pregnancy does not allow bodily autonomy.

Again, untrue. It is remarriage to someone else afterwards which may be controversial.

Divorce has only relatively recently been allowed in Christianity. Many denominations see marriage as a lifelong sacred union and discourage divorce. Some priests openly oppose divorce and will counsel women in abusive relationships to remain in the marriage. For many Christians, divorce is severely disapproved of by their community and family and they risk ostracism.

These areas make up a tiny portion of the globe. It's also unclear what the reasoning behind this is.

The reasoning is that divorce is still illegal in some Christian countries.

Mmmm, not really @Lilimoon - I have to judge all the time regarding vulnerabilities - this is entirely different concept to what is meant by the scripture you quoted. 1 Corinthians 13, of course I agree with and my opinions regarding the OP are done in the spirit of that scripture.

God gave us a brain, and through the Holy Spirit the ability to understand His Word. I understand the Commandments and I understand His guidelines for life, and therefore I understand what is 'right and wrong' in His eyes. Rhetorical questions, but would you not 'judge' murder to be wrong? Would you not 'judge' theft to be wrong? I do because they are both morally 'wrong' (that could open up a huge philosophical debate), but moreover because God has told me in no uncertain words, they are wrong.

https://www.gotquestions.org/unloving-sinning.html

Hopefully this will help clear a few things up.

You seem to have a strange idea of what it means to be a Christian and the basic tenets/ teachings of our faith. I (an actual, lifelong Christian) have tried telling you what is true, but you continue to believe you know better.

The reasoning is that divorce is still illegal in some Christian countries.

I didn't mean your reasoning, I meant the reasoning divorce is banned in the Philippines (I don't think the Vatican counts!).

I...have tried telling you what is true, but you continue to believe you know better.

Indeed.

With facts; a foetus has no bodily autonomy because it's not a being capable of surviving autonomously.

The fact is, a newborn baby is also unable to live autonomously, but I hope you'll agree it is wrong to murder them!

I'm talking about bodily autonomy. Catholicism prohibits contraception which prevents bodily autonomy.

I agree, but that still doesn't justify abortion. Regardless of faith or religion, I would still see abortion as morally wrong.

In Christianity, a woman is commanded to obey her husband and
Christians interpret that in all ways including sexually. In that case, a woman can't practice abstinence.

No, really, in doing this they would be going against the teaching in Ephesians 5:22, and elsewhere to love their wives as they love themselves.

The fact is, a newborn baby is also unable to live autonomously, but I hope you'll agree it is wrong to murder them!

In UK law a foetus doesn’t have rights. An unborn baby doesn’t become a separate person with legal rights until they are born and show signs of life. A baby can survive outside the womb.

I agree, but that still doesn't justify abortion. Regardless of faith or religion, I would still see abortion as morally wrong.

I was making a point about bodily autonomy and the ban on artificial contraception contravenes it

No, really, in doing this they would be going against the teaching in Ephesians 5:22, and elsewhere to love their wives as they love themselves.

Many Christians believe that a wife obeys her husband, she is led by him and she submits to him. This has been used by some church leaders to pressure women to stay in abusive relationships.

Christianity has a long history of misogyny and is practised in patriarchies. It is of course, a patriarchal religion which until very recently was exclusively led by men. That's why gospel about the supremecy of husbands and men, has superseded anything to the contrary.

For example,

Ephesians 5:22-33, Wives be submissive to your own husbands as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, just as Christ is the head and Savior of the church, which is His body. But as the church submits to Christ, so also let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

@cupcaske123 In UK law a foetus doesn’t have rights. An unborn baby doesn’t become a separate person with legal rights until they are born and show signs of life.

This true. Sometimes humankind's laws are an ass. God's laws play top trumps and those of us who love Him are compelled to speak for those who have no 'rights'.

Eh? Not sure where you've been reading that 'gay people' don't have rights. Weird.

First post ever as @crocconnors ... interesting. 😁

It is of course, a patriarchal religion which until very recently was exclusively led by men.

No. In the apocrypha (books of the original Bible edited out and banned by the Vatican) we find the gospels of female apostles of Jesus. The female apostles were the last at the cross, comforting Jesus as he died, and they were the first apostles he revealed himself to on the day of his Resurrection.

You probably have always been taught Jesus only had male apostles, and the women that hung about were his mum and a cackling cadre of whores that were there for after turning water into wine. That’s the later church working its propaganda machine.

In addition, the first two centuries of Christianity had female clergy, bishops and matriarchs (equal to the patriarchs).

Christianity was seen as a feminist threat to the Roman patriarchal culture as well as a wacky religious cult. So when the Romans appropriated Christianity from its Near East roots (as in when they stopped feeding them to lions for the public amusement of Romans and made it a religion of the Empire), the Romans completely overhauled it, edited its history, cut out the books written by women, and put women back in their place.

Instead they deviously put into the Bible things like letters written by Paul (traditional misogynist Roman bloke) frothing at the mouth over uppity women in good old fashioned Roman tradition. These are not the word of God…this is all they had and then used to oppress. Ephesians 5:22-33 is one such letter.

That's very interesting. Thank you. I was aware that there were prominent women in the New Testament.However, that was 2,000 years ago.

From what I understand, it's mainly the oft quoted 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-15 as well as an entrenched view of women as inferior, which has led to a lack of female leadership.

Looking at the bigger picture, thankfully the laws of the land here aren’t based on one of the many belief systems whereby a ‘God’ not only exists, but sets rules by which to live.

It becomes problematic as there are so many religions and gods and all believers think theirs is the true ‘god’ and what they believe is the truth and the correct way.

From the position of an atheist, if one was to decide to follow a faith and live by the rules of that faith, how would someone decide which religion to follow? There are so many and so many different interpretations that if they were going to follow a religion they want to make sure it’s the correct one but it’s difficult when the religious are all different…

That’s one of the issue with allowing religion to dictate what is right or wrong in a society. Thankfully women’s rights trump religious beliefs of any kind and abortion is available. It’s fine for you to disagree with it. You can live by any beliefs you want but you cant enforce your gods word on everyone.