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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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Jellyfishnchips · 11/03/2024 11:28

Hi, I wanted to bring to this the subject of free will. Practically everything we do and think is a choice of some kind. Our choices shape our thinking and actions, our thinking shapes our beliefs. We can make up our minds about the things we will and won’t accept every day, like ‘I will never like Marmite’ or ‘There is no God’ or ‘Jesus never existed’.

Objective truth says that 2 + 2 = 4 but our views can colour how (or if) we will accept objective truth.
There is a weight of historical evidence for the gospel accounts of the birth, life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Jesus fulfilled over 300 Old Testament prophecies - including those that related to the manner and place of his birth, something over which he had no control. The quantity and quality of ancient manuscripts is overwhelming. Christians do not have to rely on blind faith, but have a strong basis of sound historical evidence for Jesus. Yet millions of people will never accept he ever existed. (There are also other accounts outside the bible that speak of Jesus and John the Baptist, for example the prolific Jewish historian Flavius Josephus etc). He is an interesting article about the OT prophecies about the Jewish Messiah and the chances of them being fulfilled, forgive me if this is a bit long, but this really is amazing, please consider that just one of the OT prophets - Isaiah, who authored many of the messianic prophecies lived 700 years before Jesus was born. Here is an excerpt: (the full article is here https://firmisrael.org/learn/how-many-prophecies-did-jesus-fulfill/

“How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? The Bible is full of Messianic prophecies. Mathematician Peter Stoner counted the probability of one person fulfilling even a small number of them. And he concluded, the chance of a single man fulfilling “just” 48 of the prophecies found in the Tanakh (Old Testament) would be one in (10 followed by 157 zeros)!
In other words, that’s an unimaginable number. And how many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? Almost seven times that many.

What if He was Messiah prophesied? After all, Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) fulfilled not just the 48 specifically Messianic prophecies. In fact, He fulfilled more than 324 individual prophecies that related to the Messiah.
To the Jewish People, this is more than a matter of random interest. That is to say, the Messiah has been prophesied in Scripture with great specificity.

15 Messianic Prophecies Jesus Fulfilled - Here is a list of important Messianic prophecies that Yeshua fulfilled. Additionally, see their corresponding New Testament references:

1) Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem.
See Micah 5:2; fulfilled in Matt. 2:1-7; John 7:42; Luke 2:4-7

2) Messiah is to be preceded by a Messenger.
See Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1; fulfilled in Matthew 3:1-3; 11:10; John 1:23; Luke 1:17

3) Messiah is to enter Jerusalem on a donkey.
See Zechariah 9:9; fulfilled in Luke 35-37; Matthew 21:6-11

4) Messiah is to be betrayed by a friend.
See Psalms 41:9; 55:12-14; fulfilled in Matthew 10:4; 26:49-50; John 13:21

5) Messiah is to be sold for 30 pieces of silver.
See Zechariah 11:12; fulfilled in Matthew 26:15; 27:3

6) The money for which Messiah is sold is to be thrown “to the potter” in God’s house.
See Zechariah 11:13; fulfilled in Matthew 27:5-7

7) Messiah is to be born of a virgin.
See Isaiah 7:14; fulfilled in Matthew 1:18-2:1; Luke 1:26-35

8) Messiah is to be hated without cause.
See Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5; fulfilled in John 15:24-25

9) Messiah is to be silent before His accusers.
See Isaiah 53:7; fulfilled in Matthew 27:12

10) Messiah is to be executed by crucifixion, by having His hands and feet pierced.
See Psalm 22:16; fulfilled in John 19:28

11) Messiah is to be given vinegar to quench His thirst.
See Psalm 69:21; fulfilled in Matthew 27:34

12) Messiah is to be executed without having a bone broken.
See Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21; fulfilled in John 19:33-36

13) Messiah is to be buried with the rich when dead.
See Isaiah 53:9; fulfilled in Matthew 27:57-60

14) Messiah is to be raised from the dead.
See Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10; fulfilled in Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36;13;33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6

15) Messiah is to be executed by crucifixion as a thief.
See Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10; Isaiah 53:5, 12; fulfilled in Luke 23:33; John 20:25; Matthew 27:38; Mark 5:27, 28

The Possibility of Jesus Fulfilling every Prophecy, as mentioned in the beginning, mathematician Peter Stoner applies the modern science of probability to just eight of these prophecies. This lead him to conclude that the chance of the prophesied Messiah fulfilling all eight is one in 100,000,000,000,000,000.

In order to comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates:
…we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly. Blindfold a man and tell him that he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one?”^
“Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing just eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote in their own wisdom… ”

Now bear in mind Jesus was rejected by so many people in his own day, people who saw him work the miraculous firsthand, right in front of their eyes, heal people and even raise the dead. Practically all the religious Jewish leaders rejected Jesus, their hearts were hardened against him. They had made up their minds (I believe this has a lot to do with the heart) and made their choice. We have free will to make our choice - accept or reject. Believe Him or not.

The truth is that the vast vast vast majority of people will never accept Jesus. Not even if he was to appear in person to them and work the same miracles to prove his divinity. Even his own disciple Thomas refused to believe Jesus had risen unless he put his hand in his side (where he was pierced by the Roman’s spear at his crucifixion) and put his fingers in the holes in his hands. Thomas said he must "see," and touch - "lay his finger in the print of the nails” to believe. Jesus told Thomas that he believed because he had seen but blessed are those that have not seen, and yet believed.

Yeshua: The Meaning of the Hebrew Name of Jesus

In Hebrew, a name is more than an identifying title. It represents a calling or destiny, like it did for Yeshua - which is Hebrew for Jesus.

https://firmisrael.org/learn/who-is-yeshua-meaning-of-hebrew-name-jesus/

Kdtym10 · 11/03/2024 11:36

CurlewKate · 11/03/2024 10:58

@Kdtym10 "Basically they are two different ways of looking at the world, a world I believe is made up of physical matter and spirit."

Ah. I suspect any further conversation would be fruitless.

Why is that? Because I view the world in a different way to you. Interesting!

I mean for a while this thread took a whole “ooh aren’t Christian’s nasty because they burned the oh so clever scientist Bruno to death” direction, yet he was a Pantheist.

CurlewKate · 11/03/2024 11:45

@Kdtym10 "Why is that? Because I view the world in a different way to you. Interesting!"

No. Because your view of science is fundamentally wrong but it is informed by your faith so you won't be able to see why.

NotSoBetty · 11/03/2024 11:54

Kdtym10 · 11/03/2024 11:36

Why is that? Because I view the world in a different way to you. Interesting!

I mean for a while this thread took a whole “ooh aren’t Christian’s nasty because they burned the oh so clever scientist Bruno to death” direction, yet he was a Pantheist.

Edited

What are you actually talking about?? A fact was stated: a man’s life was taken for his beliefs, by the religious order of the day, because it went against the teachings of the church at the time. This in no way equates to all Christians being bad or „”nasty” in anyway. Because that’s not true. No one is attacking your personal beliefs when a fact about Giordano Bruno is being made. And him being Pantheist in no way changes what actually happened to that poor man. You can’t alter historical facts, and their meaning, to suit your own subjective narrative.

Kdtym10 · 11/03/2024 12:01

NotSoBetty · 11/03/2024 11:54

What are you actually talking about?? A fact was stated: a man’s life was taken for his beliefs, by the religious order of the day, because it went against the teachings of the church at the time. This in no way equates to all Christians being bad or „”nasty” in anyway. Because that’s not true. No one is attacking your personal beliefs when a fact about Giordano Bruno is being made. And him being Pantheist in no way changes what actually happened to that poor man. You can’t alter historical facts, and their meaning, to suit your own subjective narrative.

Edited

Lol. “You can’t alter historical facts, and their meaning, to suit your own subjective narrative.” That was exactly the point I was making to all the posters claiming Bruno was killed for being a scientist (just scroll back and look at the posts).

I never said he wasn’t killed for his beliefs, because that’s exactly what he was killed for. If you look back, you’ll see a post where I linked to an article setting out the beliefs he was most likely killed for. These were a broad range of heresies. Not because of any revisionist notions he was a “scientist”.

And just to clear up any misunderstanding, I’m not what you would call a Christian, so no one is attacking my personal beliefs - but thanks for your concern.

Lalupalina · 11/03/2024 12:46

The truth is that the vast vast vast majority of people will never accept Jesus. Not even if he was to appear in person to them and work the same miracles to prove his divinity.

I will bet a lot of money that the vast vast majority of people are open minded and will absolutely be very interested and curious to find out more about a person (eg Jesus) performing miracles. That would definitely make many many people change their minds!

I for one will definitely see such miracles as proof of some extraordinary power.

Until then, it's all fiction!

CurlewKate · 11/03/2024 13:14

"The truth is that the vast vast vast majority of people will never accept Jesus. Not even if he was to appear in person to them and work the same miracles to prove his divinity."

If he did that I would.

whatsitcalledwhen · 11/03/2024 13:24

The truth is that the vast vast vast majority of people will never accept Jesus. Not even if he was to appear in person to them and work the same miracles to prove his divinity.

I'm an atheist but if someone appeared and worked miracles I could witness then that could change. I think that's probably the same for most people who don't currently believe in god. So why doesn't he send Jesus to do so?

If god is real and knows that to believe in him makes people happy, loving, kind and able to go to heaven... why not give undeniable proof to people so as many people as possible can experience that and be saved?

Kdtym10 · 11/03/2024 13:54

whatsitcalledwhen · 11/03/2024 13:24

The truth is that the vast vast vast majority of people will never accept Jesus. Not even if he was to appear in person to them and work the same miracles to prove his divinity.

I'm an atheist but if someone appeared and worked miracles I could witness then that could change. I think that's probably the same for most people who don't currently believe in god. So why doesn't he send Jesus to do so?

If god is real and knows that to believe in him makes people happy, loving, kind and able to go to heaven... why not give undeniable proof to people so as many people as possible can experience that and be saved?

Probably taking his own advice in Matthew 7:6.

Lalupalina · 11/03/2024 13:55

The truth is that the vast vast vast majority of people will never accept Jesus. Not even if he was to appear in person to them and work the same miracles to prove his divinity.

That would DEFINITELY change people's view, because that would be proper evidence!!!

Lalupalina · 11/03/2024 13:57

Probably taking his own advice in Matthew 7:6.

Would you mind explaining that for those of us who haven't read Mathew 7:6 please?

CurlewKate · 11/03/2024 14:03

Gosh, you're rude, @Kdtym10!!

CurlewKate · 11/03/2024 14:05

@Lalupalina It's the "pearls before swine" bit. Best ignored.

Jellyfishnchips · 11/03/2024 14:27

Thank you for your replies, I based the bit at the end with on what happened with the people around Jesus at the time of his ministry, those who witnessed first hand the miracles he did. Some believed but many didn’t.

And the crazy thing is that the majority of his miracles were done in public, in front of huge crowds. I find it incredible that not every one who witnessed his miracles didn’t believe, even less that they would be angry and hate him for it. Jesus was hated and despised just like he is today.

Even the disciples - having been the ones to witness everything firsthand - fled frightened and broken after the crucifixion, their Saviour dead, all hope lost. Even Peter ‘the rock’ denied Christ, that he even knew him. Not one believed what he had said of himself, that on the 3rd day he would rise from the dead. Not until he stood with them, the resurrected Christ.

I think this clip from ‘Risen’ is a good illustration of this:

Best Clip from the Movie Risen - Clavius meets Jesus

Clavius fought wars against those who didn't believe in the Roman Gods. He then meets the Risen Lord. "How can this be?" KMSGROUPSCSkmsgroupscs

https://youtu.be/-ZobW1s2CG0?si=dBaZZ7ibNX-_kaNe

Jellyfishnchips · 11/03/2024 14:35

Here also is a helpful clip of which has the history of Israel in a nutshell, and how sadly the Church alienated the Jewish people from their own Messiah (which led to horrendous anti semitism) :

Best Clip from the Movie Risen - Clavius meets Jesus

Clavius fought wars against those who didn't believe in the Roman Gods. He then meets the Risen Lord. "How can this be?" KMSGROUPSCSkmsgroupscs

https://youtu.be/-ZobW1s2CG0?si=dBaZZ7ibNX-_kaNe

whatsitcalledwhen · 11/03/2024 14:36

CurlewKate · 11/03/2024 14:05

@Lalupalina It's the "pearls before swine" bit. Best ignored.

Agreed!

For anyone not familiar with the verse though, I just wanted to note that it's an odd one to have shared in response to my post clearly stating that I would be open to the idea of god if I witnessed a miracle. The whole point of the verse is to tell believers not share the gospel with people who entirely reject it.

I'm not sure if it was more of an opportunity to compare us pesky atheists on the thread to dogs and pigs tbh 😂

whatsitcalledwhen · 11/03/2024 14:38

@Jellyfishnchips

Jesus was hated and despised just like he is today.

I don't really understand this claim.

People not believing in Jesus being a messiah (or not believing in him full stop) isn't the same as 'hating and despising' him.

I don't 'hate and despise' god either, I just don't believe in him.

Disbelief isn't hatred. Atheists don't hate god. They don't believe he exists. It's completely different.

Kdtym10 · 11/03/2024 14:48

CurlewKate · 11/03/2024 14:03

Gosh, you're rude, @Kdtym10!!

Why is it rude. The Bible is fairly clear that knowledge of spirit isn’t for everyone. You made is very clear in your post to me earlier you have no interest in any discussion regarding spirit.

You accused me of not answering questions and when I asked you to kindly point me in the direction of any I missed it was apparently a long time ago and you couldn’t be bothered to find them.

You then asked a further question which I spent time replying to. Because I mentioned spirit once again you just said there’s no point in discussing it then. I’m totally perplexed as to what you do want to discuss on a thread about Christianity.

Your lack of recognition and interest in anything spiritual makes you fall within the group this quote from Jesus is aimed at.

So can you please explain why it is rude to explain the key text of the holy book of the group the thread is about.

At its base Christianity is an initiatory system (ie Baptism etc) Paul was initiated into a Jewish mystical cult.

In an initiatory system there are those on the know and those outside of it. Many purposely select those it deems spiritually ready.

Lalupalina · 11/03/2024 14:48

it's an odd one to have shared in response to my post clearly stating that I would be open to the idea of god if I witnessed a miracle.

Same! I specifically said that I am very open minded and would definitely change my opinion if f i actually witnessed a miracle!

I'll repeat: I would absolutely change my views if I actually witnessed a miracle being performed.

So please don't respond so patronisingly.

Kdtym10 · 11/03/2024 14:49

whatsitcalledwhen · 11/03/2024 14:36

Agreed!

For anyone not familiar with the verse though, I just wanted to note that it's an odd one to have shared in response to my post clearly stating that I would be open to the idea of god if I witnessed a miracle. The whole point of the verse is to tell believers not share the gospel with people who entirely reject it.

I'm not sure if it was more of an opportunity to compare us pesky atheists on the thread to dogs and pigs tbh 😂

Not strange at all. Maybe God doesn’t think anyone who can’t have faith isn’t worthy?

whatsitcalledwhen · 11/03/2024 14:52

@Kdtym10

Maybe God doesn’t think anyone who can’t have faith isn’t worthy?

But... that's the point me and another poster made. We confirmed we could have faith if we were witness to a miracle.

So the question we were pondering was why god doesn't show himself through miracles to people who would be persuaded to believe in him if they saw those miracles.

Kdtym10 · 11/03/2024 14:53

Lalupalina · 11/03/2024 14:48

it's an odd one to have shared in response to my post clearly stating that I would be open to the idea of god if I witnessed a miracle.

Same! I specifically said that I am very open minded and would definitely change my opinion if f i actually witnessed a miracle!

I'll repeat: I would absolutely change my views if I actually witnessed a miracle being performed.

So please don't respond so patronisingly.

Oh I’m not being patronising- I’m being honest! But then people see what they want to see.

Lalupalina · 11/03/2024 14:55

The truth is that the vast vast vast majority of people will never accept Jesus. Not even if he was to appear in person to them and work the same miracles to prove his divinity

Why are the Christians among you simply asserting this without any evidence?

You are probably very wrong as most people WOULD change their views.

Might it be that you know it's not possible (for anyone including a god) to perform miracles? Hmm so its never going to happen?!

Lalupalina · 11/03/2024 15:00

Oh I’m not being patronising- I’m being honest! But then people see what they want to see.

Then please be honest and kindly explain what you mean with 'people see what they want to see'.