Why (or why not) be Christian? Part 2

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing from this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality/5018897-why-or-why-not-be-christian

Anyone welcome to join. 🙂

But would it then be faith if you only believe because you have found something quantifiable and measurable? May the whole point is that you see something beyond the physical.

Have you ever read Blake?

I thought it was a fairly common turn of phrase.

But in this context what I mean is sometimes it’s easier to take offence than continue a discussion.

In the context of the wider thread, I have mentioned this many times, the call for evidence (and I have asked people previously to clarify they mean evidence which would meet scientific criteria) is pointless.

Scientific reasoning and methodology is great for understanding the physical when using the lens of the current era.

it is useless in looking at the spiritual world. You need to then step away from a mindset of how to understand the physical. It then becomes much more personal and based on individual experience.

@Kdtym10

Sorry, can you explain then why Jesus performed miracles according to the Bible?

Because if god's motivation for not showing us miracles now is that it wouldn't create true faith (ad physical / quantifiable /measurable evidence was required) why has he done it in the past?

But would it then be faith if you only believe because you have found something quantifiable and measurable? May the whole point is that you see something beyond the physical.

Sure, we can simply believe in all sorts of made up creations - the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas, God etc...?!

I thought there might be more evidence than simply believing in something

@CurlewKate -my dd is has been an atheist since she was old enough to fix her head teacher with a hard stare ...

Apologies, off topic, but this 'picture' me smile - I love a young person with the confidence to challenge authority.

It’s a good question and I must caveat my answer with the fact I have a rather esoteric view of Christianity so someone with more mainstream views might be able to give you an answer from that perspective. So apologies if this seems to start off off piste.

My view is humans all have the potential to be Christ, but we are all at different stages of our spiritual journey. Some are at the very start, and will never shift from there because they cling to the physical so much, the swine in the quote above, the rich man never entering heaven etc.

As we move along the spiritual journey we slowly let go of the physical at some point we have to sacrifice our lower self (the purely physical) to contact the higher self (the spiritual) - see the crucifixion.

Yeshua was a rabbi on this journey - he was the son of God as we are all children of the Divine (I won’t digress here about that otherwise we’ll never get to the point). He was what we might call enlightened.

His miracles were meant to tell a story of how we get to that point. Mark is probably a good place to start. It was only after he was Baptised God called him his son.

His first miracle at the wedding of water into wine is the Roman equivalent of the philosophers stone - to turn lead into gold. It was a common party trick (and one I’ve done) designed to illustrate the point. Making the blind see - again allegorical of coming out the dark into the light. It is the spiritual transformation that’s the miracle - the (spiral) substance alters. Incidentally this was bookended at the end of his life with the same allegory of turning the wine into blood - marking the next stage of the journey.

So why don’t we see it now. We do all the time. Many would rather discount it or try and explain it away.

Every time a baby is born it’s the potential for a new Christ to rise.

@Kdtym10 "And just to clear up any misunderstanding, I'm not what you would call a Christian ..."

Thank you for the clarification. Returning to the topic title "Why (or why not be be) a Christian" are you arguing reasons to be a "Christian" (for), or reasons why not to be a "Christian" (against)?

Because I view Christianity in a different way, so you probably wouldn’t call me a Christian based on the common understanding I would refer to myself as not a Christian when it’s clear the common exoteric vision of Christianity is being used. But I align with many of the views of esoteric Christianity which is more in line with a perineal philosophy.

Returning specifically to the title I think saying it’s a binary choice is very limiting especially when the term “Christian” is not defined.

Well, yes, I guess there are many folk who think they are a god. god wannabes: I think there are some religions who would erroneously claim the label 'christian' who teach something along those lines.

Christ Jesus - the only Christ, warns several times to be aware of false teachers and false prophets.

Which is exactly why I tend to avoid Paul.

Jesus also said “ye are gods”

Thank you for responding.

As for a binary choice given in the thread title, yes, I guess the stark choice is somebody for Christ Jesus or are they against?

I can understand all the arguments against - I had them myself for many years.

Maybe you could start another thread that was less limiting in its topic?

Yeah, I reckon the religions who erroneously claim to be 'christian' perhaps use this to underpin the false teachings that folk can be a god on their own little planets in the hereafter. It plays into some people's egos, I guess. They forget (may be by accident, or may be on purpose) to fill in the blanks see here

No this one is fine thanks, I’ve clarified what I mean by Christian now so my posts can be read in that context.

After all early Christianity had lots of variation of beliefs and practices and some people still carry on with these today.

I therefore think it’s appropriate to include a broad definition of Christianity.

But feel free to start a new thread if you want to talk about a very narrow definition.

The thing is, you may not have personal experience of a miracle but on the previous thread and even this one, people have shared their own stories. I posted a link on the first thread to quite an extensive study on miraculous healing, Gumbear shared links to two and also her friend's story. You could also look at near-death experiences (NDE) which have frequent hallmarks such as knowing exactly what was being said and done by people in another room or part of the building while the subject was physically dead or in a similar state.

Yes, each one is anecdote and again we've previously discussed how the supernatural and God are not suitable subjects for the scientific method of research, but taken as a whole, are you unable to give any credence to the possibility that these people are speaking about real things that actually happened? Or do you need a personal miracle/experience to consider believing?

In any case, I'm not saying this to pressure you into accepting something you don't believe, but your "" and suggestion that Christians on here haven't addressed it because we "know it's not possible" is a long way from the reality of the conversation you've been part of!

Psalm 82 is interesting. If you read the Hebrew text it referred to Elohim throughout.

I must admit I only have basic knowledge of Hebrew and the context is often important to give the true meaning But nevertheless Elohim (often here referred to as God in English translations) refers to other Elohim - in the council of gods. It’s interesting here why the term Elohim was used for both. You would have thought YHVH would have been better used here to distinguish.

Maybe, this was done on purpose to signal the other gods (commonly thought to be humans in position of high spiritual authority) were the same as God except their mortality in the physical sense.

It’s rather like the Gnostic Hymn of the Pearl. The divine nature of man being forgotten as we went down into Egypt (ie the material world).

Why do you think Elohim means something different between God and man here? It would be useful to understand the differentiation in the Hebrew rather than reading into it what we think should be there. In a similar vein it would be good to clarify why God created the world rather than a host of angelic beings as again the word Elohim is used - although here contextually it would appear to be singular.

it’s a funny word, female root, male plural ending.

Of course the answer might lie in the time frame of the adoption of the Yahweh cults into the El cults, I haven’t spent any time looking at this in respect of Psalm 82. Cab you shed any light on that?

Hi, thanks everyone for your thoughtful and honest replies, I find it very encouraging that many of you have said that if you witnessed a miracle yourselves, it would be a real game-changer! Ie cause a change in your heart and likely turn you to belief.

As Christians we believe (and have the aforementioned weight of original manuscripts and historical evidence to founding it) that Jesus was witnessed to have said and worked the miracles he did. Also in the evidence for his resurrection, which is the very cornerstone of Christianity.

Consider also the changed lives of the disciples themselves when they encountered Jesus. And of Saul of Tarsus (later the apostle Paul) a man full of hatred and violence against the early Jewish believers in Christ, he hated Jesus and every believer of his, and was on a serious mission to purge them all working alongside the Romans. He was complicit in the stoning of St Steven to death for professing his faith in Christ:
”Paul himself later said in Acts 22:20 And when the blood of Stephen Thy witness was shed, I also was standing by and approving, and keeping the garments of those who killed him," indicating that he himself felt just as responsible as those who had performed the stoning.
And yet, look at what happened when he encountered Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Is there any better example of a total life and faith turnaround than that of the apostle Paul?

People’s reactions to Jesus when they saw/heard him teach and work miracles was crazy polarised. I think people’s reactions to Jesus are still highly polarised today. People saw him work the miraculous and either loved him and followed him/ believed or wanted to have him tried as a blasphemer and killed. Ultimately Jesus was condemned to die on the cross of Calvary but he made it very clear that he gave his life ‘for the ransom of many’. It certainly gives me pause to think the very same crowd that welcomed Jesus into Jerusalem at Passover waving palms and celebrating him, were shortly after the same crowd to condemn him in Pilates court shouting ‘crucify him, crucify him!’
I think there is a lot to be said about the human condition here. That evidence - including the direct firsthand witness of miracles - is not enough to convince people of Jesus’s Godship. It must, and still does, require faith to believe.

There are also many personal accounts and testimonies of Jesus healing and working the miraculous today. I could list so many here but they are discounted as worthless and unprovable, just like my own personal experience of Jesus’s life saving grace and miraculous healing in my own life. So what can we do? We can point to the evidence and point to the cross.
Reading the Gospels for yourself is a great place to start and try to have an open heart. Jesus says that He stands at the door of our hearts and knocks, if any open the door he will come in and have fellowship with them and give to them his free gift of salvation. God can be known - he has made a way through His Son Jesus.

@Jellyfishnchips - do you have information on your quote?

‘The Chosen’ series is also a very digestible way to check out the gospels, it’s a great show and they portray Jesus beautifully.

I personally would say that from the all the various Jesus films that have been made over the years and mini series etc that Jesus in ‘The Chosen’, is the absolute closest to my own personal experience of Him, right down to His warmth, love and even sense of humour 🙂

Some of the claimed miracles are blatantly untrue so why would anyone believe?

Hi Parker231, thank you this does deserve a proper reply and I think someone else also asked about it previously, I will try to come back to you this evening. I’m just doing dinner and bedtime for my little ones so will log back in later this evening when they’re down

I totally understand this is not an easy thing to get our heads around. Is there something particular in the gospel accounts that makes you feel they are untrue?

I am so sorry the church has done such a terrible poor job of witnessing Jesus and representing God’s word and character. I am so sorry the church has been so flawed and has much to answer for.

I don’t go to church as friends and family don’t get married in church and the funerals we’ve been to aren’t religious services. As a family we don’t attend church services as we’re all atheists.

As regards to purported miracles - you can’t walk on water nor can you feed five thousand from a couple of loaves.

How would you feel about these things if the real miracle in them was showing you how to walk a path to spiritual fulfilment.

For example if the miracle of walking on water was having the confidence to weather the storms, keeping your eye on the divine will enable you to rise above your emotions not be consumed by them (the likely interpretation of this given the Greek symbolic interpretation of water).

That isn’t what the Bible says.

Also you don’t need faith to have confidence or to rise above your emotions

I would feel that was a massive cop-out, as would most people I imagine.