Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

"No, but that also isn't remotely what the PP said! Although I'm sure her life doesn't reflect it, if her (our) ultimate purpose is simply to survive and reproduce then yes that depresses me."

There's a difference between the ultimate purpose of a species-which is survival and reproduction, and the purpose of us as individuals.

If we can find higher purpose individually then it makes no sense not to apply that to the human race in totality IMO. The two can and should be complementary.

Describing physical processes and drives that occur doesn't equate to 'purpose' but this is the error in looking at everything purely 'scientifically' (using the term loosely) - it's just observations and mechanics devoid of the transcendent and meaningful. Despite the fact that we ALL experience transcendence! But now we've decided that because we can see our brains light up on a scan that's all it is.

I'm not suggesting science itself lacks meaning btw just that when we use it to 'explain away' rather than as a useful tool and source of wonder, that's what it becomes.

@Mustardseed86 "If we can find higher purpose individually then it makes no sense not to apply that to the human race in totality IMO."

It actually makes perfect sense to me. For me there is no mechanism for the human race collectively to have a higher purpose. An individual's "higher purpose" is to make the best possible use of the life we have. And to make other people's lives the best they can be.

But then what is the mechanism for individual purpose?

Presumably all of us posting have food, shelter and basic safety, many (most) of us will have children so that's reproduction ticked off. Now we just need to make sure our children survive and also reproduce. So what are we doing on here? It's irrelevant surely.

So you consider passing on your genes to the next generation and so ensuring that we as a species survive 'irrelevant' ?

That is THE most important purpose of ANY living organism!

And I wouldn't even call it 'purpose' - it is simply a biological process and part of our evolution.

Why does there have to be a purpose?

"But then what is the mechanism for individual purpose?"

Living the best life you possibly can and doing the best you can for other people. "Witnessing" (if you like) for humanity.

Aligning our thinking with that of Christ can affect us physically. We receive His inheritance as we are changed by Him.

What?

And why would anyone be changed by him??

You misunderstood my post.

What are we doing on here? It has nothing to do with the purpose you describe.

If you insist on asking about 'purpose' then all life forms have one essential purpose: survival. In order to achieve that the species must reproduce.

This applies to us humans just as it does to horses, ants and bacteria.

There really is nothing deeper than that.

That doesn't mean you can't really enjoy your time on earth while alive.

"What are we doing on here? It has nothing to do with the purpose you describe."

We're moving the best lives we can.

What is a cat doing here?

But then you're stripping away a huge part of what makes us human. Of course we can enjoy our lives. A key aspect of that is a sense of purpose and meaning.

A cat and a human are fundamentally different though, that's the point.

100%. If we put humanity before this subservient belief in an invisible god, who refuses to reveal himself to us, if we vested as much faith in each other, into our common humanity, as we do in this god, the world would be an amazing place. And that’s what’s depressing, because we are seemingly so far from that prospect.

@Mischance The essence of Christianity is kindness - no more, no less.

My pedant's head begs to differ (for any reader who may not know). The essence of Christianity is Christ Jesus. His message is more than kindness - it is God's love. Although, of course it's also nice to be kind - and many folk are kind even without knowing Christ.

@Lalupalina

What?

And why would anyone be changed by him??

Basically because changing the way you habitually think (including belief) can change you physically. Habitual thought patterns affect brain physiology, hormone regulation and in turn this affects bodily functions and actions. Actions can affect us physically too. Our very genetic make up is meta stable as gene expression can change through a process of epigenetics where environment and behaviour affects the way genes are switched on/off. These changes can be passed down the generations.

A cat and a human are fundamentally different though, that's the point.

Not really. Cats and humans are both living organisms that have evolved and survived into what they are today. Humans have larger brains and cats have more fur, but that's about as different as we are.

@NotSoBetty For me, the two are connected and each strengthens the other. Why are you so sure we'd be better off without the God part of the equation? Why would that make the world amazing?

@NotSoBetty,

100%. If we put humanity before this subservient belief in an invisible god, who refuses to reveal himself to us, if we vested as much faith in each other, into our common humanity, as we do to this god, the world would be an amazing place. And that’s what’s depressing.

I don't agree. God has infinite knowledge, love and mercy. Loving God involves loving and respecting fellow human beings but also recognises we all have our limitations and flaws. Leaning upon God's insight helps us navigate all this and helps us forgive the mistakes which will inevitably be made and move past them.

Basically because changing the way you habitually think (including belief) can change you physically. Habitual thought patterns affect brain physiology, hormone regulation and in turn this affects bodily functions and actions.

Of course I understand that. And of course we constantly change and our genes mutate so as to be best adapted to current conditions.

But: we do not need a 'god' to change us. Natural selection does a much better job.

@Mustardseed86

Why are cats and humans fundamentally different? I think they are fundamentally the same except that humans are cleverer.

And I agree about purpose and meaning- but for me that means living as well as we can, and supporting and doing everything we can do to improve the condition of our fellow humans-the ones here and the ones to come.

@Lalupalina I'll stick with God thank you very much. Natural selection does not offer as much considering the state of the population's physical and mental health today.

@heyhohello Well im not sure any god is doing a better job considering your mentioned state of the population's physical and mental health today.

God has infinite knowledge, love and mercy. Loving God involves loving and respecting fellow human beings but also recognises we all have our limitations and flaws. Leaning upon God's insight helps us navigate all this and helps us forgive the mistakes which will inevitably be made and move past them.

i do these things off my own back but don’t need God to intervene

@Lalupalina well, the atheists on this thread were talking earlier about this country being increasingly secular. Anyway I find my faith has helped me. 🙂