Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

i do these things off my own back but don’t need God to intervene

@Parker231, and without any arrogance whatsoever....!?!

Just normal behaviour - see it in my family, friends and work colleagues daily

@heyhohello " and without any arrogance whatsoever....!?!"

Can we agree not to go down the "atheists have no moral compass" route please?

Can we agree not to go down the "atheists have no moral compass" route please?

@CurlewKate, I'm not the one claiming to be perfect. I don't believe any one is. So to say that negotiating humans limitations, flaws, forgiveness and moving on from mistakes is 'just normal behaviour' downplays the difficulties we all can have at times IMO,

But why do you want to make your life comfortable, what things make it comfortable and why. Have you ever cried at a piece of music? Why? None of these things are important to survival

it seems you value something beyond surviving and passing on your genes, why is that? What do you value beyond merely surviving and why?

I definitely think some people are more spiritually evolved than others. At the end of the day, for me that’s what matters. Biologically we are much of a much.

Actually it does an appalling job. Spiritual practice can change many of these things in a lifetime rather than many generations which involves a certain amount of randomness. Although interesting you’re willing to leave evolution to something bigger than you.

Nothing I have described is perfection but just how normal people behave - atheists can be good people!

But how has supposedly god’s revelation, through this Christ person, made things better for this world? How? Still, in this day and age, women are not seen as equal to men (for example, I can never become a priest, or a bishop, or the pope, in the Catholic Church - because I am a woman - no matter how devoted I am, because I am a woman!!!) Still, in this day and age, there are wars and societal divisions happening due to a belief in “him”. And so the list goes on. Still, there is so much unremitting, continual, non sensical suffering, felt by hundreds of millions of people who are completely, still, devoted to this unseen creator. And yet, when all of the terrible things are happening, this god doesn’t show himself? Why would a father allow his children to suffer like this?! Let’s take your god out of this, and give our selves - humanity, in unison, a chance to figure everything out. We have nothing to lose, given all the suffering.

Exactly, just common sense. I met some evangelical Christians some years back who came from Lithuania and didn't know many English people. We invited them for Sunday late lunch, and we then supported them quite a bit, including lots of practical gifts, etc. They asked one day, when they realised we are not religious at all, how we knew what to do? How we were kind to others, and did everything we could to help, without God's guidance.

Our joint reply was simple 'just makes sense, simple'. Nothing at all arrogant here, just plain common sense. What goes round comes around.

Nothing I have described is perfection but just how normal people behave - atheists can be good people!

@Parker231, I never said they couldn't. It's the insinuation it's somehow lesser to feel that God helps in this respect, which has been one of several problematic attitudes towards Christians coming through from atheist posts on this thread* It's like criticising someone for finding counselling helpful.

*others being:
-Feeling prayers are answered is akin to madness.
-Christians should not allow their Christianity to affect any aspect of society which would involve not being a full part of society (since the Christian faith potentially affects every aspect of a person's being).

Apart from people didn't say it like you are claiming they did, there is always a thought that if you need belief in a deity, and belief that you are damned if you don't behave, in order to do good, you're not fundamentally a good person.

Atheists (the good ones, i.e. most of them), are good without this threat.

@heyhohello "CurlewKate, I'm not the one claiming to be perfect. I don't believe any one is. So to say that negotiating humans limitations, flaws, forgiveness and moving on from mistakes is 'just normal behaviour' downplays the difficulties we all can have at times IMO"

Nobody is claiming to be perfect. But the whole idea that atheists cannot properly negotiate the difficulties of life because it can't be done without God is just ridiculous and disrespectful. So please don't do it.

it seems you value something beyond surviving and passing on your genes, why is that? What do you value beyond merely surviving and why?

No, I'm not valuing anything any more than our species (humans) doing well and surviving as a species. That is the main reason any living organism exists.

Surviving and thriving as a species requires us all to nurture our families and communities and can include a lot of fun and fulfilment.

I absolutely do not see ANY need for one or more gods or any other mythical beings!

We, like all other living organisms, have adapted very successfully and are therefore alive. There's really not more to it.

@HannibalHeyes,

there is always a thought that if you need belief in a deity, and belief that you are damned if you don't behave, in order to do good, you're not fundamentally a good person.

No, I'm not fundamentally a good person in and of myself, no one is. I have faults and can easily make mistakes especially in stressful circumstances. And Christianity is not about 'behaving', it's about recognising the goodness in Christ and believing in Him and what He has done for us which saves us.

Nobody is claiming to be perfect. But the whole idea that atheists cannot properly negotiate the difficulties of life because it can't be done without God is just ridiculous and disrespectful. So please don't do it.

Yes! Of course nobody is perfect. What does perfection even mean - but that's a different question!

But yes, please don't continue to assume that people cannot negotiate life, cannot enjoy life and cannot lead fulfilled lives without a god.

And Christianity is not about 'behaving', it's about recognising the goodness in Christ and believing in Him and what He has done for us which saves us.

And what happens to those of us who don't recognise his goodness and don't believe in him?

But the whole idea that atheists cannot properly negotiate the difficulties of life because it can't be done without God is just ridiculous and disrespectful. So please don't do it.

@CurlewKate, there is a difference between saying I find something helpful and saying that without it someone will cope less well. I have said the former on this thread.

The reply was effectively 'I do not need that I just do it normally. As do my family and friends!' Thus insinuating to find a particular thing helpful is lesser, not normal.

A much nicer answer would be to say how they cope without the thing I find helpful. For example, talking to friend, counsellors, reading philosophy, wellness routines, meditation - whatever.

@Lalupalina

And what happens to those of us who don't recognise his goodness and don't believe in him?

I don't know for certain. You tell me, you're the one with more experience of not believing.

@heyhohello "No, I'm not fundamentally a good person in and of myself, no one is."

Of course you are-so am I. So are most people. We have faults and flaws and get things wrong-but we are fundamentally good. We all know that telling our children they are fundamentally naughty is disastrous for their development. Why is it OK fornGod to tell people that?

Why is it OK fornGod to tell people that

@CurlewKate, he doesn't have to. The bad in human nature is there all around us as well as the good. But we're not fundamentally good or bad as humans. We have the potential for both.

No one knows whether the cat is here or not.

But surely Atheists are faced with threats too. Do they not murder people only because there is a threat of jail?

So what about people who can’t or don’t want to, or just don’t have children? Have they no purpose?

Well, it's like Christopher Hitchens said when it was posited to him that without any gods what was to stop him murdering people. He answered that he'd murdered as many people as he wanted to - i.e. none.