Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

That's how I generally live my life - I make the best of every situation and I'm grateful to be alive!

I simply do not see how a 'god' could change this attitude of mine?

Well we all are driven by a belief that something is bigger than just us.

I don't think that at all. I think we humans along with all other living creatures, are mainly driven by a desire to survive and to pass on our genes (see the book The Selfish Gene).

I do not think that any living organism including us is driven by anything more than that ultimately.

That's how I generally live my life - I make the best of every situation and I'm grateful to be alive!

Which is a good thing. Who do you thank for life itself, though, if you do believe in God?

I simply do not see how a 'god' could change this attitude of mine?

I find my Christian faith invaluable at times when what is known of life, in terms of human knowledge, doesn't offer much hope for the future. I have been in several situations where this is the case and can safely say my faith has helped immensely.

Also in situations where human knowledge doesn't offer much clarity.
This, I feel, applies to many situations as much of what we know is contextual and real life situations rarely replicate exactly the same contexts that people have tested out or lived through themselves. Plus human knowledge relies upon human interpretations which usually vary or don't take into account all the priors. Human investigation is often limited too in terms of what is seen as financially beneficial. Ditto advice given. Or there are other biases such as an advice giver wanting to validate their own actions by promoting a particular course of action to as many people as they can.

So I pray and ask about stuff and the help I need comes to light pretty rapidly usually (see upthread in terms of how this has played out for me).

That should read 'if you don't believe in God.' @Lalupalina in the 1st paragraph.

So you simply survive not live? As I was saying a nihilistic mess? Why do you just want to survive not live?

I believe that we are ultimately driven to pass on our genes. That does not mean that we cannot enjoy our lives in the process!

So your implication that I am not 'living' is very incorrect.

I find this a profoundly depressing view. It's almost a bit dehumanising isn't it? Not much scope for love, beauty, art, music etc (except as a reproductive strategy). I see it as there are higher and lower instincts that we have as humans. We have consciousness and creativity which means it's not purely about survival and genes, otherwise nobody would have a fulfilling life without children or ever think of sacrificing themselves for the greater good.

I know we have biological instincts that can encourage us to be altruistic as well, but I don't think that does justice to the human experience. Just my personal feelings.

Who do you thank for life itself, though, if you do believe in God?

Nobody! The fact that I exist is purely based on biological processes when I was conceived. It's nature's way of ensuring our species survives.

Not much scope for love, beauty, art, music etc (except as a reproductive strategy)

There's lots of scope for love (especially our own children and partners), beauty (we hardwired to like/search for it), and of course we want to make our lives as comfortable as possible so music and art all have their place.

We behave just like all other living organisms in that respect.

@Lalupalina but biological descendants can be superseded by partaking of the inheritance of Christ.

Biologically speaking, just as thinking can affect brain physiology (like how talking therapies work) and in turn brain physiology affects the body (as the brain controls bodily functioning) and in turn actions. Aligning our thinking with that of Christ can affect us physically. We receive His inheritance as we are changed by Him.

So this is why we call members of the church brother/sister/father/mother/son etc.

I think that living your life to the best of your ability, putting yourself and other living things front and centre and doing whatever you can to help other humans flourish and live their lives to the best of their ability isn't remotely depressing or dehumanising.

This scripture links with the point I am making

"48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12:48-49)

Last post @Lalupalina

But, correct me if I'm wrong, that really doesn't tie in with Dawkins, 'The Selfish Gene'.

I actually agree with you on this. We have evolved beyond our base genetic urges (although they are still there), which should be a good thing. You could argue that music and art are part of our socialising genetic urges, but I think it's gone way beyond that (in some people at least). Altruism exists although not in this government and is another good thing, which doesn't alway tie in with genetics.

However, I still don't think we need to pretend there are gods in order to achieve this. I think we've evolved beyond that urge as well.

...as gene expression can be affected by environmental factors such as behaviours, diet, stress, air quality etc

However, I still don't think we need to pretend there are gods in order to achieve this. I think we've evolved beyond that urge as well.

@HannibalHeyes, really? Look at the recent 'manifesting' craze, where people treat themselves / the universe as a god in order to manifest their wishes.

The reality is that beliefs change us physically. Thinking habits change brain physiology, brain physiology changes bodily functioning which can change actions. In turn what we consume and our environment in general and stress can affect our microbiome which can affect our brains.

The science is only just beginning to discover some of the ways these factors all can manifest.

I, for one, am pleased at the leadership, God with infinite knowledge can offer us.

@heyhohello "But, correct me if I'm wrong, that really doesn't tie in with Dawkins, 'The Selfish Gene'."

Well, it does, very broadly. But I haven't mentioned the Selfish Gene- I think tgat was someone else.

@CurlewKate ah. I thought you referring back to a previous point which mentioned it.

"Look at the recent 'manifesting' craze, where people treat themselves / the universe as a god in order to manifest their wishes."

I'm not sure this is the slightest bit of evidence that any gods actually exist! You have obviously decided that that is your way of perceiving the universe, but I'm afraid repeated bible quotes aren't going to convince any of us who have actually read the bible, and know that there are always quotes saying the opposite...

My point here was challenging your assertion that 'we've evolved beyond the urge".

@HannibalHeyes simply reading the Bible is not the same as having a relationship with God through Christ. I have read the Bible too but I also have a relationship with God through Christ.

@HannibalHeyes

You need an ongoing relationship with God through Christ to see which context which piece of scripture fits into. You need to be genuinely seeking Him and not merely using scripture to justify your own arguments. And as you don't believe in Him I doubt you're doing the former.

No, but that also isn't remotely what the PP said! Although I'm sure her life doesn't reflect it, if her (our) ultimate purpose is simply to survive and reproduce then yes that depresses me.

Think about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. You can chop the top off that for a start because anything above basics physical needs and instincts doesn't register.

Presumably all of us posting have food, shelter and basic safety, many (most) of us will have children so that's reproduction ticked off. Now we just need to make sure our children survive and also reproduce. So what are we doing on here? It's irrelevant surely.

Maybe some of us are more evolved than others...