Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Why (or why not) be Christian?

1000 replies

Mustardseed86 · 29/02/2024 19:25

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Gumbear · 06/03/2024 14:26

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 13:45

How convenient und uncritical to simply defer any real thinking to a god and to accept his 'power'.

Accepting that you don't know everything doesn't mean you "defer any real thinking".

professorcunning · 06/03/2024 14:54

Kdtym10 · 06/03/2024 13:00

There’s actually many scientists who disagree with the Big Bang

Not reputable ones. The big bang is basically a fact at this point, a fact that may be tweaked a little as new evidence emerges as with all science, but It is a fact

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 14:57

@heyhohello I trust the medical doctor who is operating on me because he's been to medical school and has practiced the surgery many times - so yes I trust him.

But I do not trust a being that I've never had the chance to meet, that has not earned its trust!

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 15:01

Accepting that you don't know everything doesn't mean you "defer any real thinking".

@Gumbear I think you misunderstood me.

I am happy to accept that we don't (yet) understand everything about the universe. I do not need 'faith' and make up stories that might explain things. I am happy to say "I don't understand"

Some of you seem to use religion and the concept of a god to fill these gaps in our understanding. You have no evidence, so why not just say "We don't understand either"

heyhohello · 06/03/2024 15:05

@Lalupalina God is eternal, He is the creator, He has infinite knowledge. What school would you expect to teach and assess Him?

And there is a chance to meet God! You can meet him through His word, in worship, through prayer, in His church and the Sacraments.

You simply have to want to meet Him and acknowledge Him when you do. Otherwise it is like trying to meet someone in a busy, noisy railway station with a blindfold on and earplugs in.

heyhohello · 06/03/2024 15:10

@Lalupalina

Some of you seem to use religion and the concept of a god to fill these gaps in our understanding. You have no evidence, so why not just say "We don't understand either"

We do say that. It's just we acknowledge that, whilst we have a lack of understanding, we do have hope and we do have faith.

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 15:13

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 15:01

Accepting that you don't know everything doesn't mean you "defer any real thinking".

@Gumbear I think you misunderstood me.

I am happy to accept that we don't (yet) understand everything about the universe. I do not need 'faith' and make up stories that might explain things. I am happy to say "I don't understand"

Some of you seem to use religion and the concept of a god to fill these gaps in our understanding. You have no evidence, so why not just say "We don't understand either"

But that's not really true. Obviously there are plenty of things I don't understand and others I do (or I think I do). God is important to me in all areas, whether mysterious or not.

Even if we eventually understand scientifically how the universe came into being, how material reality came from 'nothing' and how life itself began, I will still see God at work in these things just as I do now.

OP posts:
Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 15:15

(Obviously I can only speak for myself, but my impression is that is the general position of everyone who believes in God, with the exception of Biblical fundamentalists perhaps.)

OP posts:
Gumbear · 06/03/2024 15:33

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 15:01

Accepting that you don't know everything doesn't mean you "defer any real thinking".

@Gumbear I think you misunderstood me.

I am happy to accept that we don't (yet) understand everything about the universe. I do not need 'faith' and make up stories that might explain things. I am happy to say "I don't understand"

Some of you seem to use religion and the concept of a god to fill these gaps in our understanding. You have no evidence, so why not just say "We don't understand either"

You are misunderstanding me. I explained above how I came to faith. I didn't ponder all the unanswered questions of the universe and then "make up stories" to fill them in and then claim I have all the answers. I think every Christian on this thread has said we don't know all the answers.

It would also be refreshing if we could keep the discussion intellectual rather than scornful and derisive.

Kdtym10 · 06/03/2024 15:59

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 15:01

Accepting that you don't know everything doesn't mean you "defer any real thinking".

@Gumbear I think you misunderstood me.

I am happy to accept that we don't (yet) understand everything about the universe. I do not need 'faith' and make up stories that might explain things. I am happy to say "I don't understand"

Some of you seem to use religion and the concept of a god to fill these gaps in our understanding. You have no evidence, so why not just say "We don't understand either"

You obviously have a certain perspective, a lens through which you assess everything. In the terminology of Blake this was called “Newtons Sleep”

I can’t speak for anyone else, but calls for “evidence” “assessing” etc are pointless to me in looking at the spiritual realm. It’s like someone trying to see what colour something is demanding to see results from a stopwatch.

To understand you need to switch perspective

Parker231 · 06/03/2024 16:11

heyhohello · 06/03/2024 15:05

@Lalupalina God is eternal, He is the creator, He has infinite knowledge. What school would you expect to teach and assess Him?

And there is a chance to meet God! You can meet him through His word, in worship, through prayer, in His church and the Sacraments.

You simply have to want to meet Him and acknowledge Him when you do. Otherwise it is like trying to meet someone in a busy, noisy railway station with a blindfold on and earplugs in.

In my world there are no gods and certainly not one who people claim has infinite knowledge (personally I think that assumption is ridiculous as there is no evidence).

Some of the biblical claims of miracles aren’t true - you can’t walk on water, turn water into wine or give a blind person their sight back as examples

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 16:25

*And there is a chance to meet God! You can meet him through His word, in worship, through prayer, in His church and the Sacraments.

You simply have to want to meet Him and acknowledge Him when you do.*

I am genuinely baffled by these assertions.

How does God speak to you? Is it audible?

How can you differentiate between God's words and your own thoughts?

HannibalHeyes · 06/03/2024 16:49

I think this thread has jumped the shark now. It was interesting to start off with, but has just ended up with nothing but unsubstantiated versions of "you just have to open yourself to him", or "I know in my heart", or "he's unknowable", or some other such nonsense. The usual religious person's way to shut down any intelligent argument.

Kdtym10 · 06/03/2024 16:51

Parker231 · 06/03/2024 16:11

In my world there are no gods and certainly not one who people claim has infinite knowledge (personally I think that assumption is ridiculous as there is no evidence).

Some of the biblical claims of miracles aren’t true - you can’t walk on water, turn water into wine or give a blind person their sight back as examples

Oh you can - you’re just reading it wrong. Study alchemy and you’ll soon see😃

Kdtym10 · 06/03/2024 16:52

HannibalHeyes · 06/03/2024 16:49

I think this thread has jumped the shark now. It was interesting to start off with, but has just ended up with nothing but unsubstantiated versions of "you just have to open yourself to him", or "I know in my heart", or "he's unknowable", or some other such nonsense. The usual religious person's way to shut down any intelligent argument.

Like really? I find many of the atheists demands of “where’s your evidence” lacking in flexibility in the intelligence.

Parker231 · 06/03/2024 16:58

Kdtym10 · 06/03/2024 16:51

Oh you can - you’re just reading it wrong. Study alchemy and you’ll soon see😃

Am very happy with my understanding as an atheist. Not reading anything wrong.

Parker231 · 06/03/2024 16:59

Kdtym10 · 06/03/2024 16:52

Like really? I find many of the atheists demands of “where’s your evidence” lacking in flexibility in the intelligence.

Have a flexible attitude but still need evidence before changing my outlook and opinions

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 17:06

I find many of the atheists demands of “where’s your evidence” lacking in flexibility in the intelligence.

I'm honestly trying to understand your arguments for and your evidence of God's existence.

However, i cannot see ANY evidence of God's existence. I also cannot understand how he can actually communicate with people. All I can see is a lot of suffering in this world, which a 'benevolent' God would surely prevent?!

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 17:09

I'm starting to think that religion is a form of wishful thinking because accepting the facts as we know them today are too difficult?

heyhohello · 06/03/2024 17:19

I am genuinely baffled by these assertions.

How does God speak to you? Is it audible?

How can you differentiate between God's words and your own thoughts?

@Lalupalina, me personally? Examples are me praying about something I am concerned about then having a dream full of Biblical symbolism on occasions Jesus has appeared and spoken to me in a dream, or coming across a relevant piece of scripture in a devotional reading or church service or simply a piece of scripture coming to my own remembrance immediately upon praying. I've also prayed for help and people have immediately come to my aid. And yes, this isn't scientific evidence and yes, it does require my own interpretation but I have been so thankful to receive the insight. 🙂

heyhohello · 06/03/2024 17:21

I'm starting to think that religion is a form of wishful thinking because accepting the facts as we know them today are too difficult?

@Lalupalina, except wishes don't have to line up with scripture and what we can discern of God from scripture.

RealRubyBee · 06/03/2024 17:33

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 08:46

This is a readable and fairly balanced article from Time magazine:

A number of recent books and articles would have you believe that—somehow—science has now disproved the existence of God. We know so much about how the universe works, their authors claim, that God is simply unnecessary: we can explain all the workings of the universe without the need for a Creator.

And indeed, science has brought us an immense amount of understanding. The sum total of human knowledge doubles roughly every couple of years or less. In physics and cosmology, we can now claim to know what happened to our universe as early as a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang, something that may seem astounding. In chemistry, we understand the most complicated reactions among atoms and molecules, and in biology we know how the living cell works and have mapped out our entire genome. But does this vast knowledge base disprove the existence of some kind of pre-existent outside force that may have launched our universe on its way?

Science won major victories against entrenched religious dogma throughout the 19th century. In the 1800s, discoveries of Neanderthal remains in Belgium, Gibraltar and Germany showed that humans were not the only hominids to occupy earth, and fossils and remains of now extinct animals and plants further demonstrated that flora and fauna evolve, live for millennia and then sometimes die off, ceding their place on the planet to better-adapted species. These discoveries lent strong support to the then emerging theory of evolution, published by Charles Darwin in 1859. And in 1851, Leon Foucault, a self-trained French physicist, proved definitively that earth rotates—rather than staying in place as the sun revolved around it—using a special pendulum whose circular motion revealed the planet’s rotation. Geological discoveries made over the same century devastated the “young earth” hypothesis. We now know that earth is billions, not thousands, of years old, as some theologians had calculated based on counting generations back to the biblical Adam. All of these discoveries defeated literal interpretations of Scripture.

But has modern science, from the beginning of the 20th century, proved that there is no God, as some commentators now claim? Science is an amazing, wonderful undertaking: it teaches us about life, the world and the universe. But it has not revealed to us why the universe came into existence nor what preceded its birth in the Big Bang. Biological evolution has not brought us the slightest understanding of how the first living organisms emerged from inanimate matter on this planet and how the advanced eukaryotic cells—the highly structured building blocks of advanced life forms—ever emerged from simpler organisms. Neither does it explain one of the greatest mysteries of science: how did consciousness arise in living things? Where do symbolic thinking and self-awareness come from? What is it that allows humans to understand the mysteries of biology, physics, mathematics, engineering and medicine? And what enables us to create great works of art, music, architecture and literature? Science is nowhere near to explaining these deep mysteries.

But much more important than these conundrums is the persistent question of the fine-tuning of the parameters of the universe: Why is our universe so precisely tailor-made for the emergence of life? This question has never been answered satisfactorily, and I believe that it will never find a scientific solution. For the deeper we delve into the mysteries of physics and cosmology, the more the universe appears to be intricate and incredibly complex. To explain the quantum-mechanical behavior of even one tiny particle requires pages and pages of extremely advanced mathematics. Why are even the tiniest particles of matter so unbelievably complicated? It appears that there is a vast, hidden “wisdom,” or structure, or knotty blueprint for even the most simple-looking element of nature. And the situation becomes much more daunting as we expand our view to the entire cosmos.

We know that 13.7 billion years ago, a gargantuan burst of energy, whose nature and source are completely unknown to us and not in the least understood by science, initiated the creation of our universe. Then suddenly, as if by magic, the “God particle”—the Higgs boson discovered two years ago inside CERN’s powerful particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider—came into being and miraculously gave the universe its mass. Why did this happen? The mass constituted elementary particles—the quarks and the electron—whose weights and electrical charges had to fall within immeasurably tight bounds for what would happen next. For from within the primeval soup of elementary particles that constituted the young universe, again as if by a magic hand, all the quarks suddenly bunched in threes to form protons and neutrons, their electrical charges set precisely to the exact level needed to attract and capture the electrons, which then began to circle nuclei made of the protons and neutrons. All of the masses, charges and forces of interaction in the universe had to be in just the precisely needed amounts so that early light atoms could form. Larger ones would then be cooked in nuclear fires inside stars, giving us carbon, iron, nitrogen, oxygen and all the other elements that are so essential for life to emerge. And eventually, the highly complicated double-helix molecule, the life-propagating DNA, would be formed.

Why did everything we need in order to exist come into being? How was all of this possible without some latent outside power to orchestrate the precise dance of elementary particles required for the creation of all the essentials of life? The great British mathematician Roger Penrose has calculated—based on only one of the hundreds of parameters of the physical universe—that the probability of the emergence of a life-giving cosmos was 1 divided by 10, raised to the power 10, and again raised to the power of 123. This is a number as close to zero as anyone has ever imagined. (The probability is much, much smaller than that of winning the Mega Millions jackpot for more days than the universe has been in existence.)

The scientific atheists have scrambled to explain this troubling mystery by suggesting the existence of a multiverse—an infinite set of universes, each with its own parameters. In some universes, the conditions are wrong for life; however, by the sheer size of this putative multiverse, there must be a universe where everything is right. But if it takes an immense power of nature to create one universe, then how much more powerful would that force have to be in order to create infinitely many universes? So the purely hypothetical multiverse does not solve the problem of God. The incredible fine-tuning of the universe presents the most powerful argument for the existence of an immanent creative entity we may well call God. Lacking convincing scientific evidence to the contrary, such a power may be necessary to force all the parameters we need for our existence—cosmological, physical, chemical, biological and cognitive—to be what they are.

Science and religion are two sides of the same deep human impulse to understand the world, to know our place in it, and to marvel at the wonder of life and the infinite cosmos we are surrounded by. Let’s keep them that way, and not let one attempt to usurp the role of the other.

https://time.com/77676/why-science-does-not-disprove-god/

Science has made significant progress in understanding the natural world, but the existence of unanswered questions does not necessarily imply the existence of a divine creator. It is essential to approach these questions with scepticism and open-mindedness, recognizing the limitations of human knowledge and the complexities of existence.

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 17:41

Examples are me praying about something I am concerned about then having a dream full of Biblical symbolism on occasions Jesus has appeared and spoken to me in a dream, or coming across a relevant piece of scripture in a devotional reading or church service or simply a piece of scripture coming to my own remembrance immediately upon praying. I've also prayed for help and people have immediately come to my aid.

That all sounds wonderful and comforting for you. However, I cannot help and wonder whether the dreams and the offers of help would not have happened regardless??

I also find it a very convoluted way of communicating with someone - why would. God not have created easier channels of communication? Again, it sounds to me like wishful thinking?

HannibalHeyes · 06/03/2024 17:41

Why is our universe so precisely tailor-made for the emergence of life?

This is so obviously the wrong question that only a religious mind would have come up with it. It's really about how wonderfully evolution has managed to tailor life to fit the circumstances available. The universe is so very far from tailor made for life, that's why we have yet to find any meaningful evidence of life elsewhere. Even parts of this planet are patently not suitable for most forms of life. That any life that manages to survive in the extremes is absolutely amazing, but not really any kind of evidence of a deity.

HannibalHeyes · 06/03/2024 17:43

It's the old sentient puddle analogy. A puddle becomes self aware and thinks; "This hole I'm in fits me perfectly, it must have been designed exactly to fit me".

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.