Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

I've never met a Christian who asserts to know everything about God and the universe.

And neither do Christians. Historical claims have been discussed a lot on this thread. I also don't think it's a 'strange theory' to posit some kind of First Cause for the material universe.

This is a really, really long but readable consideration of the evidence for the disciples' deaths in history, with lots of verifiable citations. At the end it addresses the common objections.

Before I was a Christian I did lots of research into evidence like this from the point of view of wanting to disprove Christianity as I didn't want to be a Christian (mainly because of the Christians I knew at the time!). So I was very much biased and not at all open minded in how I read things. Against my original intention of disproving it I came to be persuaded that it is true.

https://repository.sbts.edu/handle/10392/4857

What is misleading about that statement? What evidence, outside of the bible, do you have for his existence? None. None at all.

And understanding among scholars is slowly starting to shift. For centuries they've either been Christian, therefore biased, or fearful of the consequences - people used to be tortured and killed for merely questioning the Church. As with the decline of faith in this country, opinion will take time to work it out.

@HannibalHeyes See @Gumbear's posts for a response to this. There is no shift towards a mythical Jesus and nobody is being tortured and killed if they do think that.

Actually myths are incredibly useful in the development of humanity.

But who says the presence of a primordial divine force is invented by humanity?

I think that the vast majority of biblical scholars agree that yeshuah ben Joseph existed. Sure, there are people heavily invested in writing books trying to prove he didn’t. But they are just as invested in their perspective as any other scholar.

it’s interesting there is a massive increase in interest in spirituality in the west. There’s a great book , “The myth of disenchant” which seeks to debunk the claims of Weber et al.

In the words of the song “our names they mean nothing, they change throughout time, so come sit beside us snd share in our wine”

The universe as we know it now was created by the big bang, what is in this universe could well have existed before in some form.

Scientists do not claim to know everything, science is always learning and updating as new information comes to light. If the information does not fit the hypothesis then the hypothesis is thrown out. Religions on the other hand do things the other way round, they claim to know everything then as information comes to light they either incorporate into the religion or claim it's 'only a theory'. They never revise their hypothesis which goes to show that they are not interested in learning anything that does not meet their preconceived notions

Personally, I don't think it really matters whether the historical Jesus existed or not.

Why?

There’s actually many scientists who disagree with the Big Bang

@Kdtym10 Because proof of his existence would not be proof of anything else. There were a ton of rabbis and mystics and hippies wandering about at the time. One of them might have been called Jesus.

Actually, it’s unlikely any were called Jesus. there were at least two called Yeshuah though,

@Kdtym10 "There’s actually many scientists who disagree with the Big Bang"

Probably, yes. I don't thing you'll find many physicists or cosmologists who don't, though.

Which Christians? As said above, they come in all guises. Some believe in the Old Testament verbatim, others don't.

Many fundamental Christians do believe that God has all the answers without question. Some don't.

I think most Christians believe that God has all the answers. But we, as mere humans, do not.

Speak with the Black hole cosmologists

There were definitely people around called "Jesus" or the equivalent. There's a section in Josephus that talks about a "Jesus son of Damneus". Unfortunately, the desperately seeking any kind of evidence lobby try to claim it as being about their Jesus, even though it makes no sense.

It's interesting that in my experience it is always deemed OK for atheists not to have all the answers but Christians are mocked for not having all the answers.

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm saying that it's OK to admit that we humans don't (yet) understand everything. We've learned so much during the past few hundred years about evolution and the huge amount of different universes, but we are still learning. I feel that is the correct approach - to admit that we simply don't understand everything (yet)!

What I find arrogant and uncritical is to 'invent' stories (eg the bibles) to fill these knowledge gaps with made up stories about one or more 'gods' without any real evidence. Why can't you just accept that we simply do not know/understand?!

How convenient und uncritical to simply defer any real thinking to a god and to accept his 'power'.

How convenient und uncritical to simply defer any real thinking to a god and to accept his 'power'.

@Lalupalina, so do you never trust anyone who has greater knowledge and experience knowledge than yourself? Would you not accept their counsel and partake in the power than counsel provides? How do you know to trust them you ask? Well you can see what other people say, what organisations and official bodies say. But ultimately that decision to trust lies with you...

@Lalupalina

So, yes, Christians have faith in, trust in God. Defer thinking to a higher power. And as a result of that are partakers of that power. For this I am truly thankful. Not all thinking is constructive after all. We can overthink, exhaust ourselves and go around in circles suffering from analysis paralysis and become exceedingly anxious with worry. Criticism and thinking, like anything else needs, to be kept in balance.

@Lalupalina, so do you never trust anyone who has greater knowledge and experience knowledge than yourself? Would you not accept their counsel and partake in the power than counsel provides? How do you know to trust them you ask?

Of course! If I'm ill I will go see a trained medical doctor, when I renovate my flat I will hire a professional architect, if I want to learn Spanish, I'll find a native Spanish speaker, so YES of course I trust those with detailed specialist knowledge.

But a god hasn't offered his knowledge nor have I been made aware of his existence?

So why on earth would I blindly trust such a god??

@Lalupalina, so who or what do you trust? Or are you sitting there trying to reinvent the wheel because you need to experience everything yourself so you can critically assess it through your own direct experience?

@Lalupalina have you seriously sought God? I mean you can go to a doctor's surgery and go through the motions because it is the done thing and even collect the medicine. But you have to decide to trust that doctor and take the medicine as directed in order to truly receive their knowledge that the medicine works...