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Philosophy/religion

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Why (or why not) be Christian?

1000 replies

Mustardseed86 · 29/02/2024 19:25

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

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Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 07:19

I believe God created everything in existence.

That seems like a convenient explanation, but then you have to ask: Then who or what actually created God?

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 07:35

God is eternal and outside of time. No one created him. If so, there would be a "bigger" God. And whi created that God. An even bigger God?Let me ask the atheists here some questions. If God doesn't exist and there is no creator being....Where does matter come from? What existed before the big bang? Why does anything exist? We know that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred, so where does energy come from? Why does time exist? Why does space exist? Is matter eternal? Did matter suddenly come from nowhere for no reason?

Mischance · 06/03/2024 07:38

I believe God created everything in existence .... Cancer cells, worms that crawl in children's eyes, earthquakes, covid, survival of the fittest with its associated terror and slaughter ......???
Or did some other being create all these .... a bad god?

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 07:48

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 07:15

I don't understand what you mean by saying it's not a historical document tbh.

he Bible is not a reliable historical source because it does not meet the standard criteria of source reliability used by historians. The Bible is not, as many believers assume, eye witness testimony. Reliable sources are generally based on authors who were eye witnesses to an event (i.e. it is a primary source). Since any particular source may be fabricating their story, multiple independent sources are usually required for confidence. Establishing the lack of author biases, including religious motivations, is also necessary if a work is to be read at face value. The Bible satisfies none of these requirements.

Paul wrote his letters very early on, referencing already established beliefs about the resurrection in a context where the Apostles were still alive. This is the central starting point of Christianity and was widespread among church communities by a couple of decades after the crucifixion. Paul also spent time with Peter and James who were eyewitnesses. So we absolutely know that eyewitnesses (the Apostles) were preaching the resurrection from the time it was purported to have happened.

If any miraculous event is dismissed as religious bias, then no, you can't make a historical case based on miraculous events. Because the a priori assumption is miraculous = untrue. That's a bias in itself.

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Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 07:49

Mischance · 06/03/2024 07:38

I believe God created everything in existence .... Cancer cells, worms that crawl in children's eyes, earthquakes, covid, survival of the fittest with its associated terror and slaughter ......???
Or did some other being create all these .... a bad god?

If you read through the thread, this has been discussed quite a bit.

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professorcunning · 06/03/2024 07:55

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 07:35

God is eternal and outside of time. No one created him. If so, there would be a "bigger" God. And whi created that God. An even bigger God?Let me ask the atheists here some questions. If God doesn't exist and there is no creator being....Where does matter come from? What existed before the big bang? Why does anything exist? We know that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred, so where does energy come from? Why does time exist? Why does space exist? Is matter eternal? Did matter suddenly come from nowhere for no reason?

Where does matter come from? Same place as god maybe in that it has always existed...?

What existed before the big bang? We do not know whether there is such a concept as before the big bang but we know that 10 seconds after the big bang what existed was Hydrogen.

Why does anything exist? Maybe the universe is eternal and it's always been here.

We know that energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred, so where does energy come from? It must have always been here.

Why does time exist? Time is a concept used to measure the passing of events.

Matter does seem to be eternal it just changes form.

Did matter suddenly come from nowhere for no reason? Did god suddenly come from nowhere for no reason? We do not know if nowhere exists or even can exist but the reason for the universe existing is the big bang.

NotSoBetty · 06/03/2024 08:04

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 07:48

Paul wrote his letters very early on, referencing already established beliefs about the resurrection in a context where the Apostles were still alive. This is the central starting point of Christianity and was widespread among church communities by a couple of decades after the crucifixion. Paul also spent time with Peter and James who were eyewitnesses. So we absolutely know that eyewitnesses (the Apostles) were preaching the resurrection from the time it was purported to have happened.

If any miraculous event is dismissed as religious bias, then no, you can't make a historical case based on miraculous events. Because the a priori assumption is miraculous = untrue. That's a bias in itself.

Paul never met Jesus, so what ever he was saying and musing over, it’s still not a first account. Again, just because someone told the story of Jesus, it doesn’t make it true.

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 08:04

If matter and energy are eternal then they must have existed before the big bang.

"The reason for the universe existing is the big bang". What do you mean by this? If matter and energy are eternal then something must have existed before the big bang. What exists outside of the universe?

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 08:07

This article is interesting on the different theories:
harpers.org/archive/2016/01/what-came-before-the-big-bang/

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Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 08:11

NotSoBetty · 06/03/2024 08:04

Paul never met Jesus, so what ever he was saying and musing over, it’s still not a first account. Again, just because someone told the story of Jesus, it doesn’t make it true.

I didn't say it was a first-hand account, but it does show that belief in the resurrection was central from the very beginning. The Apostles, who were eyewitnesses, were making this claim very clearly from the start.

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Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 08:19

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 08:11

I didn't say it was a first-hand account, but it does show that belief in the resurrection was central from the very beginning. The Apostles, who were eyewitnesses, were making this claim very clearly from the start.

medium.com/interfaith-now/1-corinthians-15-3-8-an-early-creed-after-jesus-death-1c3e18992716

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Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 08:30

If matter and energy are eternal then something must have existed before the big bang. What exists outside of the universe?

We don't know (yet). It's ok to not know the answer. We are still learning so much about evolution and the Big Bang.

In the meantime it's not a good idea to invent myths and fill our knowledge gaps with gods.

heyhohello · 06/03/2024 08:40

@Lalupalina,

In the meantime it's not a good idea to invent myths and fill our knowledge gaps with gods.

You're talking to the wrong people. Christians don't believe God is invented by us, we believe He created us in His image. And as such we are ourselves creative, we have an imagination and create narrative and art. And I think the world would be a sad place without this.

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 08:46

This is a readable and fairly balanced article from Time magazine:

A number of recent books and articles would have you believe that—somehow—science has now disproved the existence of God. We know so much about how the universe works, their authors claim, that God is simply unnecessary: we can explain all the workings of the universe without the need for a Creator.

And indeed, science has brought us an immense amount of understanding. The sum total of human knowledge doubles roughly every couple of years or less. In physics and cosmology, we can now claim to know what happened to our universe as early as a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang, something that may seem astounding. In chemistry, we understand the most complicated reactions among atoms and molecules, and in biology we know how the living cell works and have mapped out our entire genome. But does this vast knowledge base disprove the existence of some kind of pre-existent outside force that may have launched our universe on its way?

Science won major victories against entrenched religious dogma throughout the 19th century. In the 1800s, discoveries of Neanderthal remains in Belgium, Gibraltar and Germany showed that humans were not the only hominids to occupy earth, and fossils and remains of now extinct animals and plants further demonstrated that flora and fauna evolve, live for millennia and then sometimes die off, ceding their place on the planet to better-adapted species. These discoveries lent strong support to the then emerging theory of evolution, published by Charles Darwin in 1859. And in 1851, Leon Foucault, a self-trained French physicist, proved definitively that earth rotates—rather than staying in place as the sun revolved around it—using a special pendulum whose circular motion revealed the planet’s rotation. Geological discoveries made over the same century devastated the “young earth” hypothesis. We now know that earth is billions, not thousands, of years old, as some theologians had calculated based on counting generations back to the biblical Adam. All of these discoveries defeated literal interpretations of Scripture.

But has modern science, from the beginning of the 20th century, proved that there is no God, as some commentators now claim? Science is an amazing, wonderful undertaking: it teaches us about life, the world and the universe. But it has not revealed to us why the universe came into existence nor what preceded its birth in the Big Bang. Biological evolution has not brought us the slightest understanding of how the first living organisms emerged from inanimate matter on this planet and how the advanced eukaryotic cells—the highly structured building blocks of advanced life forms—ever emerged from simpler organisms. Neither does it explain one of the greatest mysteries of science: how did consciousness arise in living things? Where do symbolic thinking and self-awareness come from? What is it that allows humans to understand the mysteries of biology, physics, mathematics, engineering and medicine? And what enables us to create great works of art, music, architecture and literature? Science is nowhere near to explaining these deep mysteries.

But much more important than these conundrums is the persistent question of the fine-tuning of the parameters of the universe: Why is our universe so precisely tailor-made for the emergence of life? This question has never been answered satisfactorily, and I believe that it will never find a scientific solution. For the deeper we delve into the mysteries of physics and cosmology, the more the universe appears to be intricate and incredibly complex. To explain the quantum-mechanical behavior of even one tiny particle requires pages and pages of extremely advanced mathematics. Why are even the tiniest particles of matter so unbelievably complicated? It appears that there is a vast, hidden “wisdom,” or structure, or knotty blueprint for even the most simple-looking element of nature. And the situation becomes much more daunting as we expand our view to the entire cosmos.

We know that 13.7 billion years ago, a gargantuan burst of energy, whose nature and source are completely unknown to us and not in the least understood by science, initiated the creation of our universe. Then suddenly, as if by magic, the “God particle”—the Higgs boson discovered two years ago inside CERN’s powerful particle accelerator, the Large Hadron Collider—came into being and miraculously gave the universe its mass. Why did this happen? The mass constituted elementary particles—the quarks and the electron—whose weights and electrical charges had to fall within immeasurably tight bounds for what would happen next. For from within the primeval soup of elementary particles that constituted the young universe, again as if by a magic hand, all the quarks suddenly bunched in threes to form protons and neutrons, their electrical charges set precisely to the exact level needed to attract and capture the electrons, which then began to circle nuclei made of the protons and neutrons. All of the masses, charges and forces of interaction in the universe had to be in just the precisely needed amounts so that early light atoms could form. Larger ones would then be cooked in nuclear fires inside stars, giving us carbon, iron, nitrogen, oxygen and all the other elements that are so essential for life to emerge. And eventually, the highly complicated double-helix molecule, the life-propagating DNA, would be formed.

Why did everything we need in order to exist come into being? How was all of this possible without some latent outside power to orchestrate the precise dance of elementary particles required for the creation of all the essentials of life? The great British mathematician Roger Penrose has calculated—based on only one of the hundreds of parameters of the physical universe—that the probability of the emergence of a life-giving cosmos was 1 divided by 10, raised to the power 10, and again raised to the power of 123. This is a number as close to zero as anyone has ever imagined. (The probability is much, much smaller than that of winning the Mega Millions jackpot for more days than the universe has been in existence.)

The scientific atheists have scrambled to explain this troubling mystery by suggesting the existence of a multiverse—an infinite set of universes, each with its own parameters. In some universes, the conditions are wrong for life; however, by the sheer size of this putative multiverse, there must be a universe where everything is right. But if it takes an immense power of nature to create one universe, then how much more powerful would that force have to be in order to create infinitely many universes? So the purely hypothetical multiverse does not solve the problem of God. The incredible fine-tuning of the universe presents the most powerful argument for the existence of an immanent creative entity we may well call God. Lacking convincing scientific evidence to the contrary, such a power may be necessary to force all the parameters we need for our existence—cosmological, physical, chemical, biological and cognitive—to be what they are.

Science and religion are two sides of the same deep human impulse to understand the world, to know our place in it, and to marvel at the wonder of life and the infinite cosmos we are surrounded by. Let’s keep them that way, and not let one attempt to usurp the role of the other.

https://time.com/77676/why-science-does-not-disprove-god/

Why Science Does Not Disprove God

Biology, physics, mathematics, engineering and medicine help us understand the world, but there is much about life that remains a mystery.

https://time.com/77676/why-science-does-not-disprove-god

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 08:48

Lalupalina · 06/03/2024 08:30

If matter and energy are eternal then something must have existed before the big bang. What exists outside of the universe?

We don't know (yet). It's ok to not know the answer. We are still learning so much about evolution and the Big Bang.

In the meantime it's not a good idea to invent myths and fill our knowledge gaps with gods.

It's interesting that in my experience it is always deemed OK for atheists not to have all the answers but Christians are mocked for not having all the answers.

HannibalHeyes · 06/03/2024 08:49

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 08:11

I didn't say it was a first-hand account, but it does show that belief in the resurrection was central from the very beginning. The Apostles, who were eyewitnesses, were making this claim very clearly from the start.

You mean the Apostles who it is claimed were eyewitnesses. There is literally no evidence outside of the bible that they were, and, as we've said, the bible is not a historic document.

HannibalHeyes · 06/03/2024 08:56

Particularly as there is literally zero evidence that the Jesus character actually existed outside of the bible.

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 09:05

HannibalHeyes · 06/03/2024 08:56

Particularly as there is literally zero evidence that the Jesus character actually existed outside of the bible.

And yet the consensus even among atheist scholars is that he did. So why do you feel the need to make such a misleading statement?

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NotSoBetty · 06/03/2024 09:20

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 08:48

It's interesting that in my experience it is always deemed OK for atheists not to have all the answers but Christians are mocked for not having all the answers.

I don’t think they are mocked for not having all the answers. What I do think is that for the immense and all encompassing claim by Christianity, and many other religions, that this god is the most powerful, omnipresent, all knowing, all seeing, all loving father, to all “his” children on earth, you will rightly be asked big questions to try and explain, at least partly, those immense claims that so many religions make. Standard answer like “It’s gods will”, or because “spirit”, or its “gods plan” or “only god truly knows”, or “I just know” etc etc, doesn’t really cut it for many people.

Ofcourse, no one knows everything, but if you make such massive claims on behalf of your creator be prepared to be questioned and challenged, especially given what a strong hold that religions have had on societies, over millennia, over centuries. There has to be at least some, slightly more coherent accountability for such big claims.

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 09:24

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed.[8][9][31] Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned."[32] There is no indication that writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus.[33][34]
Since the 1970s, various scholars such as Joachim Jeremias, E. P. Sanders and Gerd Theissen have traced elements of Christianity to currents in first-century Judaism and have discarded nineteenth-century minority views that Jesus was based on previous pagan deities.[35] Mentions of Jesus in extra-biblical texts exist and are supported as genuine by the majority of historians.[8] Differences between the content of the Jewish Messianic prophecies and the life of Jesus undermine the idea that Jesus was invented as a Jewish Midrash or Peshar.[36]: 344–351  The presence of details of Jesus' life in Paul, and the differences between letters and Gospels, are sufficient for most scholars to dismiss mythicist claims concerning Paul.[36]: 208–233 [37] Theissen says "there is broad scholarly consensus that we can best find access to the historical Jesus through the Synoptic tradition."[38] Bart D. Ehrman adds: "To dismiss the Gospels from the historical record is neither fair nor scholarly."[8]: 73  One book argues that if Jesus did not exist, "the origin of the faith of the early Christians remains a perplexing mystery."[36]: 233  Eddy and Boyd say the best history can assert is probability, yet the probability of Jesus having existed is so high, Ehrman says "virtually all historians and scholars have concluded Jesus did exist as a historical figure."[39]: 12, 21 [40] Historian James Dunn writes: "Today nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed".[41] In a 2011 review of the state of modern scholarship, Ehrman wrote: "He certainly existed, as virtually every competent scholar of antiquity, Christian or non-Christian, agrees."[42]: 15–22 

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 09:24

The Christ myth theory is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and the accounts in the gospels.[43] In the 21st century, there have been a number of books and documentaries on this subject. For example, Earl Doherty has written that Jesus may have been a real person, but that the biblical accounts of him are almost entirely fictional.[39]: 12 [44][45][46] Many proponents use a three-fold argument first developed in the 19th century: that the New Testament has no historical value with respect to Jesus's existence, that there are no non-Christian references to Jesus from the first century, and that Christianity had pagan and/or mythical roots.[47][48]
Contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and biblical scholars and classical historians view the theories of his nonexistence as effectively refuted.[8][10][49][50][51] Robert M. Price, an atheist who denies the existence of Jesus, agrees that his perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[52] Michael Grant (a classicist and historian) states that "In recent years, no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus, or at any rate very few have, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."[10] Richard A. Burridge states, "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that anymore."[49][36]: 24–26 

NotSoBetty · 06/03/2024 09:33

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 09:24

The Christ myth theory is the proposition that Jesus of Nazareth never existed, or if he did, he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity and the accounts in the gospels.[43] In the 21st century, there have been a number of books and documentaries on this subject. For example, Earl Doherty has written that Jesus may have been a real person, but that the biblical accounts of him are almost entirely fictional.[39]: 12 [44][45][46] Many proponents use a three-fold argument first developed in the 19th century: that the New Testament has no historical value with respect to Jesus's existence, that there are no non-Christian references to Jesus from the first century, and that Christianity had pagan and/or mythical roots.[47][48]
Contemporary scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and biblical scholars and classical historians view the theories of his nonexistence as effectively refuted.[8][10][49][50][51] Robert M. Price, an atheist who denies the existence of Jesus, agrees that his perspective runs against the views of the majority of scholars.[52] Michael Grant (a classicist and historian) states that "In recent years, no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus, or at any rate very few have, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."[10] Richard A. Burridge states, "There are those who argue that Jesus is a figment of the Church's imagination, that there never was a Jesus at all. I have to say that I do not know any respectable critical scholar who says that anymore."[49][36]: 24–26 

But even if he did exist, as an earthly human, just because he claimed to be the son of god and, in himself the proof that god exists, doesn’t mean it’s true and proves nothing. Thousands of people over centuries, have claimed to be Jesus. Dave down the road, with the same message, could claim the same - why wouldn’t you take Dave seriously but choose to believe in a man from 2000 years ago, just because other people have told you it’s true?

Mustardseed86 · 06/03/2024 10:14

NotSoBetty · 06/03/2024 09:33

But even if he did exist, as an earthly human, just because he claimed to be the son of god and, in himself the proof that god exists, doesn’t mean it’s true and proves nothing. Thousands of people over centuries, have claimed to be Jesus. Dave down the road, with the same message, could claim the same - why wouldn’t you take Dave seriously but choose to believe in a man from 2000 years ago, just because other people have told you it’s true?

Because of the character and teachings, miracles and resurrection. If Dave down the road filled these criteria I expect he'd generate quite a bit of interest!

As I've mentioned in previous posts, we have an early creed in Paul showing the early message of the church, which was already established in a number of areas:

“For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve”
(1 Cor. 15:3-5)

Whether you believe it or not is up to you, but clearly the earliest Christians were all about preaching the resurrection.

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Gumbear · 06/03/2024 10:14

NotSoBetty · 06/03/2024 09:33

But even if he did exist, as an earthly human, just because he claimed to be the son of god and, in himself the proof that god exists, doesn’t mean it’s true and proves nothing. Thousands of people over centuries, have claimed to be Jesus. Dave down the road, with the same message, could claim the same - why wouldn’t you take Dave seriously but choose to believe in a man from 2000 years ago, just because other people have told you it’s true?

If that's a serious question, there are lots of different reasons I believe that the historical Jesus was the Christ, I don't have a lot of time to today to list them all.

I suppose the biggest one for me is simply my personal experience of him being real, through supernatural experiences and miracles. I wasn't brought up a Christian and argued against Christianity for years. I then experienced something I couldn't explain and started looking into the evidence for myself. What I found was enough to convince me that I wasn't going mad and that there was sufficient evidence for me to take that step of faith. I'm a lawyer so evidence is really important for me.

I've also seen amazing transformations in people who became Christians. Drug dealers, gang members, addicts, and just "normal" people whose lives were suddenly completely changed (for the better) after becoming Christians. Seeing it first hand makes it hard to put that down to anything other than their meeting with God.

The disciples all ended up dying in horrible ways for their faith. If it was all a lie then why would they have maintained this lie in the face of horrible torture and death? Of course if you discount the entire Bible then you can just say that this is all made up anyway. But in that case how do you explain the start of Christianity and that many of these early Christians were killed by the Romans? Why would so many people join in with something that would get them shamed, disowned and killed if they knew it was all made up? How do you explain Paul's conversion from being the harshest persecuter of Christians to one of the most well known?

I have lots more to add but really don't have time!

fleurneige · 06/03/2024 10:16

Gumbear · 06/03/2024 08:48

It's interesting that in my experience it is always deemed OK for atheists not to have all the answers but Christians are mocked for not having all the answers.

That is the whole point, atheists, and I personally call myself a humanist, just accept that we don't know everything. And don't pretend that we do or invent strange 'theories' to fill the gap.

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