Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

@Lalupalina unity with God is about the whole of creation, all things working in harmony. With God at the head/in charge.

An analogy can be with the human body. If all our cells, all the foreign cells of foreign bodies/our biome, all our organs etc start to do their own thing, not governed by the brain, then we become sick.

@Lalupalina

And each of our cells has its own nucleus, and each organ communicates back to the brain via our nervous system.

I believe we were designed to have unity with God. When the unity / connection is lost there is suffering.

Yes, I understand the analogy with the human body.

I just don't understand the unity with God concept. Why should God be in charge?

See my response to the poster you quote.

@Lalupalina

I just don't understand the unity with God concept. Why should God be in charge?

Because He is eternal, has infinite knowledge, love and mercy.

@Lalupalina oh and when I talk about unity I am talking about harmonious unity. Each part of the whole has a different function, is different and has a different purpose. There is diversity of parts. But they work together as parts of a whole.

We don't actually know that, science and the divine may not be capable of co-existing or the divine existing at all. As you cannot prove the divine does or even could exist, it is not a likely scenario at all.

Well, I think that you have to look across societies and see differences that arise (as I stated in my original response).

No doubt there are characteristics in humans which are innate such as those which cross many species. Generally survival based, eg looking after young, hierarchical groups etc.

But morals - not so much. Now you could go Jungian and say that there is some archetypes out there in the collective unconscious which shape our behaviours. But morals vary from society to society. For example, they discovered (think it was Peru) young children frozen to death in some kind of sacrificial ritual. Did that society find that immoral? Unlikely. Would the vast majority of modern Britons find it immoral, yes. So if morals are so innate why this difference? Do modern Britons find it ok to crucify people, the Romans certainly didn’t find it immoral? The Gnostic Christians (such as we falsely group them together) thought suicide was ok, for long periods society thought it would damn you to hell. The church’s view softened so did society’s such differences illustrate the lack of continuity of morals one would assume would happen if morals were innate.

So define “proof”

What is he doing which is loving or showing mercy - not seeing any evidence of this or his infinite knowledge

He isn’t unless you handed that to him and why on earth would you do that?

Evolutionary psychology can be used to explain both pro-social and socially destructive actions. The point where it becomes morality is where we choose which of our evolutionary instincts are appropriate in a given situation.

@Parker231

What is he doing which is loving or showing mercy - not seeing any evidence of this or his infinite knowledge

We are unqualified to judge since we don't have infinite knowledge, love and mercy.

But, as a Christian, I acknowledge His love and mercy in my life.

He isn’t unless you handed that to him and why on earth would you do that?

@Parker231, maybe so you could (begin to) experience (better) unity with God?

Good for you.

Not for me, and not for the majority in the world or in the UK- which is increasingly a secular society, and will become more so with each year passing.

And time for total separation of Church (very many Churches- Christian or otherwise) and State. And Education, Health, Government, Judiciary, etc.

Sorry but that’s never going to happen. I’m not going to give any power to an imaginary god. Far too dangerous.

@Parker231

Sorry but that’s never going to happen. I’m not going to give any power to an imaginary god. Far too dangerous.

What about to the real living one?

Not for me, and not for the majority in the world or in the UK- which is increasingly a secular society, and will become more so with each year passing.

@fleurneige, you can tell the future now can you?

And time for total separation of Church (very many Churches- Christian or otherwise) and State. And Education, Health, Government, Judiciary, etc.

Maybe you should lobby for it. As an atheist, you're allowed to.

Sorry, it's a bit rich for Christians to bang on about human sacrifice - that's what the entire New Testament is about!

Where is he?

@Parker231

Sorry but that’s never going to happen. I’m not going to give any power to an imaginary god. Far too dangerous.

And just a thought, but what happens in a body when there is an overgrowth of bacteria which starts to do harm to the body as a whole? What happens to that bacteria? Whichever 'wins', that is whether the body's immune systems overcomes the overgrowth of bacteria, the outlook isn't good for the bacteria. It cannot survive either way...it needs the body to sustain it.

I see the strawman is back.

@Parker231

Where is he?

Everywhere. Some of Him is in me. 🙂

In what way? Are you telling me that the story of Jesus isn't about a human sacrifice?