Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

If he didn't sacrifice himself for our sins, doesn't that mean that we aren't all forgiven? Which means that the whole premise of Christianity is false?

@Kdtym10 I think the argument of Christ as a form of human sacrifice is actually not a strawman at all. It's one of the reasons why I could never be a Christian. And of course there were plenty of pre- and non-Christian societies where human sacrifice was not a thing at all - there are for example very many forms of paganism.

Your point about crucifixion is irrelevant - it was a form of the death penalty, punishment for a crime. Now I happen to think the death penalty itself is deeply immoral, but there are plenty of people who profess to be Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. who are absolutely fine with it. However, the underlying moral theme is around punishment for serious transgression, i.e. murder, and that is something that is common to all major religions and none because murdering people is disruptive to a society.

The prohibition against suicide is an interesting one - major Abrahamic religions were and mostly are vehemently opposed, but suicide was not disapproved of in Japanese culture, to name but one example - it was actively encouraged in certain cases. I'd have to do a lot of reading into anthropology to find out (and I haven't the will) but I am sure there are other cultures where the suicide prohibition doesn't exist.

I think there are core innate moral imperatives which are nothing to do with religion - prohibitions against murder, incest, theft, rape - and which form the foundations of secular law. The fact that cultural variations existed and still do exist doesn't negate that.

There’s a big difference between self sacrifice in order to transform and human sacrifice to appease. I’m not sure you understand the basics here

He didn't "sacrifice himself" - the whole sacrifice trope is from pagan religions. God did not give his only son - he (assuming he/she exists) knew darn well his "son" would be fine.

That whole death cult aspect of Christianity is gross. If the whole story were reenacted now people would wear a little gold electric chair round their necks.

Come on - nobody knows whether god exists or not - what we DO know is that (in this awful world that is based on kill or be killed) we can rise above all this petty sectarian stuff and simply be kind to each other. If everyone strove to do that there would be no wars. We would simply be left with cancers/worms crawling in children's eyes etc. and all the other foul aberrations that our "maker" has given us.

But my life works in harmony without an god

@Mischance I think tribalism is as much a human trait as any other - safety in number is a survival mechanism after all. But that doesn't mean we can't work to be better. Religious sectarianism is every bit as bad as racism, nationalism, sexism, ageism - the whole bloody lot of them.

We're all human. And it's always worthwhile taking time to get to know people rather than leaping to judgement based on what 'tribe' someone else belongs to. We're human, we're prone to snap judgements, but what we can do is once we've gone through that knee-jerk moment is step back and question ourselves.

You are of course totally entitled to believe this as much as you want.

But I am totally entitled to call it deluded nonsense- and even more so, to expect those beliefs to be totally private and shared with your congregation only, and not to impact my life, laws, judiciary or the education of my children, thanks.

May I ask which denomination you belong to. Not very long ago, my Catholic mother's family and my Protestant father's family, and communities, were at war with each other, and it was NOT pleasant.

I take antibiotics to get rid of any bacteria making me ill but don’t need any god to improve my outlook.

If you can't tell the difference between the events of the New Testament and the practice of human sacrifice, you must really be bucking the religion and IQ trend.

More like you know perfectly well and enjoy goading.

Oh well. 🤷‍♀️

@fleurneige strange coincidence. My mother was Catholic and my father Protestant also (C of E). They were married C of E. I was baptised C of E as an infant but attend a non denominational church now.

@Parker231

Careful you don't overuse the antibiotics.

Hardly likely - DH is a doctor!

And just a thought, but what happens in a body when there is an overgrowth of bacteria which starts to do harm to the body as a whole? What happens to that bacteria? Whichever 'wins', that is whether the body's immune systems overcomes the overgrowth of bacteria, the outlook isn't good for the bacteria. It cannot survive either way...it needs the body to sustain it.

What analogy is this supposed to be ?

What part is a god supposed to play? The bacteria? My body? Antibiotics? Fermented food???

Everywhere. Some of Him is in me.

@heyhohello What does that actually mean?

Ohh I say! Are you a 13 year old virgin too? Is this the second coming everyone has been waiting for?

You tell me, it's your book. It looks like a human sacrifice, walks like a human sacrifice...

When my thinking lines up with God's He is in my thoughts. When my actions line up with God's will, He is in my actions.🙂

And isn’t a human sacrifice. Human sacrifice is there for appeasement. The spiritual significance of the crucifixion in esoteric terms is the sacrifice of the lower self to go through a period of transformation (nearly always signifies as 3 days/stages) to be reborn/ reveal the higher self. There’s slot of symbolic significance going on here. None of which involves human sacrifice.

@professorcunning, see my previous post.

I’m just wondering why you’re here. Your comments are pointless and boring. They add nothing to the debate. You don’t appear to be adding anything to the discussion. It’s clear you have no education round this subject as either someone with a spiritual, atheist or agnostic persuasion.

What part is a god supposed to play? The bacteria? My body? Antibiotics? Fermented food???

@Lalupalina, in the God/body analogy God is the brain and all of His creation is the body. The overgrowth of bacteria is the elements of creation that are acting in a way independent from the brain (God) and harmful to the body (rest of creation).

As nobody was answering my earlier questions and I've been at work so not able to fully immerse myself into the discussion I thought I'd try to add to the discussion with something a bit lighter. If you find it boring you are welcome not to bother to read my comments further but addressing me directly may not be the best way to achieve that.

The dictionary definition will do surely, it is evidence that establishes a fact.

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

@HannibalHeyes, the detail regarding this are a personal revelation. I don't announce it to the general public other than saying thinks like, 'Thank God it worked out ok!' 😉

So you would only see it as something good in me / my actions. And I leave it up to people's individual judgment regarding whether they find me trustworthy. Never had any problems in that respect though.