Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

The opposite of a secular state is a theocratic state. So what is Britain in 2024? Of course the country is going through a very hard time, there’s a lot awful things happening, but we are definitely a secular nation.

Well therein lies the problem. Are the sane morals innate in us all? Most likely not. These have varied across time and space. Is it wrong to kill a child? Some cultures would say yes others not always so. Human sacrifice has been seen as an honour across several cultures This indicates that culture plays a huge part.

Christianity is the underlying glue of most of western culture and this includes shaping morals.

Now in turn did human nature share Christianity. Probably not. More likely it was society that shaped it. What makes a functioning society? How do you put rules in place which will ensure that individuals follow those rules.

so westerners are shaped by Christianity as individuals because individuals are shaped by society Christianity was shaped by the needs of society often in distant lands and different times

Just because we aren’t a theocracy doesn’t make us secular

@Kdtym10 how do you know that our morals were shaped by Christianity instead of the other way round? How do you know Christian morals were not shaped by the moral tenets which are innate to us and part of an evolutionary drive towards societal and species survival?

That's a good question, actually.

It's really quite presumptuous to ascribe so much to religion. In fact, the emerging fields of evolutionary biology, and in particular evolutionary psychology, are arguing that, despite the complexity of human social behaviors, the precursors of human morality can be traced to the behaviors of many other social animals.

Exactly this. Anyone who thinks that our morals all come from Christianity presumably thinks that nobody had any morals 2000 years ago.

It's pretty obvious that humanity would never had survived as a society without developing the obvious notions of not killing each other, sharing food, duties, etc..

Unfortunately, the other survival instincts of obeying your elders ("don't play with that lion!"), lead to a higher survival rate, but also to a greater willingness to be lead by perceived "elders", hence religion...

@Kdtym10 what basis do you have for saying the same morals which are key to survival are most likely not innate? Statements like that need backing up. @Lalupalina has provided some interesting links - I would like to see what you bring to the table.

Of course we do.

And even for those who do consider themselves religious, most are 'culturally' religious, and only a small minority are CofE- and of those, most are not practising.

Regarding 'innate' and 'cultural' qualities in humans is not an either or, as I understand it but an interrelationship between environment/behaviours/experiences/culture affecting genetic change. Either or is a futile deliberation. This is because our genetics are meta staple since epigenetic changes can occur due to environmental (behaviours/experiences/culture/diet/micro biome etc) factors and then be passed on through the generations. It's like genes have habits but can change given the right stimulus.

Funnily enough this fits in quite well with the way inheritance works as described in the Bible....

Most people do not need a God of any shape or form, to tell them not to kill, and to try and to their best and be kind to each other. Common sense is not based on religious belief. And sadly, religions have caused more death and misery than anything else. And not very long ago, one form of Christianity against another, never mind other religions.

@fleurneige,

And sadly, religions have caused more death and misery than anything else. And not very long ago, one form of Christianity against another, never mind other religions.

But was that due to belief in God or due to people's greed, hunger for power, status, wealth, land, status etc? Wars, injustices, and abuses occur where there is no religious belief too. Social animals, such as chimps wage wars upon each other.

The essence of Christianity is kindness - no more, no less. If you just seek to live your life on the basis of being kind, then you cannot go wrong.

If you choose to join a religion you will be side-tracked from that important central tenet by:

• sects
• fundamentalists
• rituals
• finances
• arguments about facts and beliefs
• taking sides in religious wars

All religions, including Christianity, have an appalling track record when it comes to kindness. Just get to the nub of the thing and do not get embroiled in all the potentially negative accretions, borne from centuries of greed and male dominance. Just care for those around you. That is challenge enough.

Never said war and cruelty were only perpetrated by religions, or Christianity. But religious belief certainly has NOT prevented the above, at all. Christians against Christians tearing each other apart and burning each other alive. And other religions too. And Christians in the Crusades killed thousands upon thousands of Muslims, and millions as part of colonisation.

@fleurneige being graphic about it doesn't negate the fact that there has been just as much brutality amongst pagans, the Vikings, the Roman Empire, communist regimes, dictatorships etc etc, as there has amongst Christians.The fact is human beings can be as cruel as they can be loving, as destructive as they can be creative.

The fact is human beings can be as cruel as they can be loving, as destructive as they can be creative.

Yes, absolutely.

But religion is often an additional reason for conflict and fighting. I can't see religion doing anything to reduce such fighting.

Maybe there would be LESS conflict without religions?

@Lalupalina reasons for fighting cannot be quantified in such a way. More likely, less likely? It becomes meaningless An aggressive atheist could get into a fight just as easily as an aggressive Christian. There are always reasons to fight if someone is that way inclined. Christian or not.

@Lalupalina would you ban football / other competitive sport because of fighting between fans of opposing teams? I mean it's another reason to fight...

Political parties?

Families?

Relationships?

You don't get my point at all. Religion is supposed to be 'for good'.

@fleurneige,

You don't get my point at all. Religion is supposed to be 'for good'.

I don't think you get Christianity. It is not about our/peoples or indeed Christian's goodness. It is about Christ's. It is the what He did for us. We don't redeem ourselves, we can't, He does. Hopefully by acknowledging our flawed natures, our sins (acting against God's will), following Him and believing on Him, we gradually become more Christlike. And this redemption is a process, coming into perfect unity with God doesn't happen immediately, it's a life's work.

@fleurneige

It's why people say the church isn't for the 'well' but the 'sick'.

But I thought Religion was supposed to be good and have a positive influence on humanity?

But actually Religion is just another reason to fight?

@Lalupalina see my last but one post regarding what Christianity is about.

As a wise man once said;

Good people will always do good things.
Bad people will always do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things, that takes religion.

@Lalupalina basically anything that involves people not being in unity with each other can divide them. Christians seek unity with God, not necessarily people so that can divide them where some people are not in unity with God and some are. However achieving that unity with God is a lifetime's work, to know God would require full knowledge of Him which is impossible in this life. So that can divide people too.

Atheists are as diverse (maybe more so) than Christians so there is plenty to divide there.

@HannibalHeyes no person is fully good or evil. We all have strengths and weaknesses.

I personally don't think that any person should be 'in unity' with anyone or anything. You can be your own individual person and live happily and harmoniously with others.

I don't really understand the concept of 'unity with a God'.