Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

Don't want to go back and read all the thread again. I was responding to a poster who said her Christianity had no impact on Law making, and that she didn't want her private religion to impact Laws for others.

Christianity, and in only one of its form, CofE, still has a huge and official influence and even political power in the UK- with many in the House of Lords, and with everyday running of many schools, and the HouseofC, being impacted.

In a modern and very mixed society, religion should be an entirely private matter. Individuals have of course the right to their opinion and to lobby as individuals.

its interesting, I’ve never come across a scientific theory which excludes the possibility of a Divine force.

That's because we don't understand everything yet. So ANYTHING is a possibility, including a divine force or a goblin force or any other not yet to be discovered physical force.

That doesn't make a divine force any more likely imo.

Exactly - and doesn’t make it any less likely either.

@Kdtym10 Actually it does:

There are billions of potential and yet undiscovered forces - goblin forces, physical forces, light forces, nuclear forces, zombie forces etc. Just because we haven't yet discovered these forces, doesn't mean a divine' force is the answer.

What is wrong with just admitting that we simply don't know yet? We just don't understand?

Take an example, assisted dying. The vast majority of the population is in favour, but the religious lobbies are preventing change in the Law. Ask Esther Rantzen and Prue Leith, and so many more.

You can't speak for everyone though. Many, many people have met God and had spiritual experiences.

These meetings must have been very secretive. How come God is so secretive and reluctant to reveal himself?

And this is absolutely awful! Especially, in a matter like this. In 2024, there should not by any religious influence either from any kind of religious organisation or religious lobby, when it comes to democratic policy making. It’s very wrong.

But what does it mean to “know” something- you could take a scientific approach of what is provable or mathematically probable.

Or you could look at a more spiritual/philosophy knowing which is a lot more internal. It can’t be “proved” externally.

Having lots of unknowns doesn't make a divine force any less likely at all. No one knows when looking at a scientific/external knowledge.

Many people know internally.

This is where I like Gnostic Christianity. Suicide/assisted dying fine.

Christiaity shaped by army needing/peasant needing/worker needing gives rise to ideas which do not make your life your own

Well there’s several potential answers

1. God isn’t reluctant reveal Himself, some people are reluctant to see - common in Christianity - Jesus heals the blind man, Paul’s blinding and gaining back his sight on the Road to Damascus etc.
2. You need to have reached a certain level of spiritual advancement to meet God (common in initiatory orders)
3. God only reveals himself to the chosen or deserving
4. God exists but doesn’t actually reveal himself to anyone - it’s just wishful thinking
5. God doesn’t exist

Probably some other ones - all potential realities.

Absolutely every one has a right to their religious beliefs, and of course they should be respected. But those beliefs should in no way, in a democratic and secular society, influence policy and law that then someone like me will have to live with, even though I disagree.

But after 2000 years Christianity has permeated the very fabric of society. Even the morals of atheists are shaped by Christianity, usually through the filters of society.

I think the continued involvement of Christian thought creates a continuity and familiarity- it is a suitable framework.

However, some of the stained glass in that door needs cleansing to filter out some of the prejudices where a no longer exiting society shaped the church views eg on women, gay people etc.

But we don’t live in a secular society.

But what does it mean to “know” something- you could take a scientific approach of what is provable or mathematically probable.

Maybe we should define knowledge as understanding something. We simply don't understand (yet) the complexity of the formation of our universe.

What's wrong with simply admitting that?

Why the need to ascribe a divine' force to such inexplicable events?

*Well there’s several potential answers

• God isn’t reluctant reveal Himself, some people are reluctant to see - common in Christianity - Jesus heals the blind man, Paul’s blinding and gaining back his sight on the Road to Damascus etc.
• You need to have reached a certain level of spiritual advancement to meet God (common in initiatory orders)
• God only reveals himself to the chosen or deserving
• God exists but doesn’t actually reveal himself to anyone - it’s just wishful thinking
• God doesn’t exist*

I guess the last option is the most likely one imo

@Kdtym10 you're working on the classic religious assumption that morals come from faith and are therefore necessary. Given that the morals that maintain a functional society are very similar across all faiths and in those who are of no faith, I would argue that there is no established causality between faith and morals. There's a deeply rooted arrogance in the assumption that faith is at the heart of a good moral framework.

We live in a country where 53% of us describe ourselves as having no religion. So let's be secular and do it well.

What? Britain is considered to be one of the most secular nations in the world, very much so. And thank goodness for that

look what has happened in the US - particularly in some states where the religious right have overturned Roe v Wade. Am very glad not to live there or bring up my DD there. You have the right to own a gun but not the right to make decisions about your own body!

Absolutely every one has a right to their religious beliefs, and of course they should be respected. But those beliefs should in no way, in a democratic and secular society, influence policy and law that then someone like me will have to live with, even though I disagree.

I guess I shouldn't vote then @NotSoBetty ? It's what happens when you live in a democracy. I don't agree with Brexit but I still have to live with it. You can't decide certain parts of society have no right to take part fully just because you dislike their opinions - as long as due process and human rights are upheld. The issue is when that doesn't happen. But even human rights is an ideology created and upheld by hopefully a big enough majority of people (again, doubtful in practice. But there's never going to be perfection.)

Absolutely every one has a right to their religious beliefs, and of course they should be respected.

Absolutely not! Everyone one has a right to their religious belief, but they certainly should not all be respected! Have you seen some of the bullshit some come up with?

But, dig deeper and that a lie, our morals, architecture, institutions, work pattens, language etc have been shaped by religion, almost everything we do has been impacted by religion at some point, specifically the Christian religion.

There might be a decline in the number of consciously practicing Christian’s in this country but there’s a lot of people unconsciously bringing the rituals and ideology of Christianity into their lives every day. This, whether you like it or not creates a subconscious link to Christianity. Whether you chose to try and reject it consciously is up to you.

Britain is a religiously diverse and tolerant society and all that entails. It does not make it secular. Even our head of state is also head of the Church.

But what do you mean „”by not taking part fully”? Of course you do, but surely letting one’s person religious beliefs influence something as important as law, would be infringing on someone else’s religious rights/beliefs, or detrimentally affecting people who are not religious at all, and so this goes on and on. As a modern, secular society we need full embrace and advance towards a complete separation of church and state. We are a democracy not a theocracy.

Sorry, I meant that everyone has right to their religion and that of course should always be respected. As for some of the beliefs, well that’s different story.

If you think Britain is a secular society just have a look at the education system.

It absolutely is a secular nation. Yes, of course British history is Christian history, but so much of it was/ is terrible history by the very fact that it was propelled by religion, and you can’t so easily romanticise the past. Slavery, the ravages of Empire - that bought into servitude millions of people, generationally so, the bad treatment of women in society, generally very little to no rights, and in relation to men, all of these things and worse, were supported by the religious order, in some shape or form. To this day, religion is patriarchy, it’s still run by men. So many awful things have happened because of religion- and you don’t need religion to be a morally good human being.

Time to firmly bring ourselves into 21st century.

@Kdtym10 how do you know that our morals were shaped by Christianity instead of the other way round? How do you know Christian morals were not shaped by the moral tenets which are innate to us and part of an evolutionary drive towards societal and species survival? You don't. It's an assumption. This is the arrogance of faith.

And I have no problem with people petitioning or demonstrating for a law change - but those changes must not be made on a religious basis. Vote, petition, demonstrate, be a part of society - but at least have some self awareness and don't seek to impose the tenets of faith on people who do not share your faith. Freedom of religion should also bring freedom from religion. We need separation of church and state, and we need to do it better than the US (not a high bar).

Well exactly- I’m surprised anyone would think we are a secular state.