Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

I guess how to create an eternal universe for one. I don't think even the cleverest of boffins living in Clever Street, in Cleverland could do that.

I agree with you. 🙂

Guess it depends on your beliefs - I’m in the Big Bang camp so an imaginary god had nothing to do with it.

I think this where we are often bemused at how many Christians seem to think of atheists. They seem to think we're in some way angry at their god, shouting away in frustration or something.

No. We have not the slightest evidence that any gods exist, so we carry blithely on without the slightest consideration of them until we get into some kind of philosophical discussion.

Now, we can often be angry at Christians as they so frequently want to impose their rules and bigotries on us...

The Big Bang Theory: one of my favourite programmes! I agree an imaginary god would not have much to do with anything.

Oooh dear @HannibalHeyes I was not pointing a pointy finger at ALL unbelievers. I know quite a few who are not angry at something they don't believe. My response was to one person in reply to their own observation - one I know they share with others - but not all.

I do see the irony in your post, btw.

Now, we can often be angry at Christians as they so frequently want to impose their rules and bigotries on us...

@HannibalHeyes, you shouldn't generalise though. I don't impose any rules on you. I'm not a law maker. However, if I talk about something theoretical in a such a way you or anyone else might feel persuaded by what I have said that is not imposing rules either.

The Royal Institution Christmas Lectures had some good sessions on how the universe came about.

@Thegreatestoftheseislove I am not angry at all. Being angry at something I do not believe exists would be the height of stupidity. I was merely saying that IF it turns out after I die that there is a God and an afterlife, I am ready to speak up on my own behalf. And why would there be a queue? An all powerful God would surely have the divine equivalent of a time Turner?

I guess how to create an eternal universe for one. I don't think even the cleverest of boffins living in Clever Street, in Cleverland could do that.

Do you honestly believe that a god actually planned and built not just our earth but all the other planets and galaxies??

Do you also believe that he planned and built us humans? I thought we evolved from apes!

You have but to look at the US to see how wrong headed that contention is. Over there, extremist evangelicals have persuaded enough people that they have been able to warp society into what is essentially a theocracy in places. And non- Christians have to live with their ridiculous rules. Add a bit of heavy gerrymandering and a dollop of censorship in the firm of book bans and you have a society where a faith imposes itself on everyone. I think it's a legitimate thing to be concerned about.

You have but to look at the US to see how wrong headed that contention is. Over there, extremist evangelicals have persuaded enough people that they have been able to warp society into what is essentially a theocracy in places. And non- Christians have to live with their ridiculous rules. Add a bit of heavy gerrymandering and a dollop of censorship in the firm of book bans and you have a society where a faith imposes itself on everyone. I think it's a legitimate thing to be concerned about.

@pointythings, ideologies are not limited to theocracies though. Many cruelties, injustices and abuses took place under communism and numerous under dictatorships for example. It's what wars are fought over.

So should we by angry over every slight difference of opinion from our own? Should we polarise it and take it to the nth degree? Should we slam every opposing viewpoint down and censor it? Or should we listen to people, value them, try to find common ground and some sort of environment when we can actually engage with others and look for the good in them and ourselves and encourage more of that?

Ah, a straw man. How lovely...

Christians have to live with their ridiculous rules as well, including women being investigated over miscarriages and denied medications. I'm a Christian who would find it very scary being a woman in the US.

I know it's hard to separate the different strands, but I would say any ideology taken to destructive extremes can lead to situations like this, not just religions but other movements and political views. Trans extremists want to impose their views on the rest of society too, for example.

It's definitely a legitimate concern. But we don't stop allowing people to discuss, debate ideas and use their right to protest, the right to vote democratically for the parties that push their agendas just because we don't agree with it. So there's no obvious solution really.

Edited: repetition.

@HannibalHeyes straw men only exist where people force a polarisation of what has actually been said. You look earnestly for straw men to burn and dance about attempting to make fires or you can simply stop getting overheated. 🙂

I'm not the one creating the straw men!

So who is?

@Mustardseed86 I think looking at this from a point of view of ideology is actually very valid. I have friends in the US who are Christian and who are absolutely terrified and disgusted at what the extremists are up to.

@heyhohello I think that there is such a thing as righteous anger. Don't you? To me, that means standing up and speaking out against injustice and oppression, no matter who is doing the oppressing. I don't see anyone on this thread being angry over little differences of opinion. However when things tip over into oppression, it's time to speak up. Your faith isn't something that bothrs me. I am glad you have it to sustain you and enhance your life.

The faith of someone who wants to ban abortion and has the power and influence to make that happen is another matter.

I agree with this. The trouble is your (or someone else's) views might be someone else's 'rules and bigotry'. And we all have beliefs of one sort or another.

If you think surrogacy and pornography are forms of exploitation of women, you're someone else's idea of a bigot. If you think males shouldn't compete in women's sports, you're a bigot (and possibly a genocidal one!)

So how do we collectively decide what is and is not acceptable, or what our values are? Not by shouting 'bigot' at each other, surely. I don't know what the solution is. The separation of church and state is a principle I agree with but all sorts of damaging ideologies have a way of finding their way into our political conversations, especially when people are highly motivated. FWIW I think Christian ethics get a bad rap - but I don't see anything classically Christian about US Republicans of the extreme evangelical variety. They don't seem to give a stuff about the poor, for a start.

@pointythings

I think that there is such a thing as righteous anger. Don't you? To me, that means standing up and speaking out against injustice and oppression, no matter who is doing the oppressing. I don't see anyone on this thread being angry over little differences of opinion. However when things tip over into oppression, it's time to speak up. Your faith isn't something that bothrs me. I am glad you have it to sustain you and enhance your life.

Yes, but my point was that talking persuasively over a personally held point of view isn't oppression or imposing rules unless the point that was being made was made specifically in order to oppress or impose rules. Yet this lead you to talk about certain oppressive theocracies.

My personal faith, as you have probably gathered from our previous conversations, is not about trying to impose rules upon or oppress others. And many other people perceive the Christian belief system as I do. Yet if I happen to be persuasive about my particular Christian perspective then that is or at least leads to oppression?

Righteous anger? Yes, I agree. Speaking up, yes, I agree. But that anger should not be aimed at individual people. I believe it is often the systems, structures, cultures and societies, the Zeitgeist if you like, that creates and are responsible for oppression. We are all simultaneously the victims and perpetrators as members of society, as members of the human race. This accords with my Christian beliefs as a large part of that is acknowledging this point.

And regarding this thread, maybe there has not been much anger, but I think there has been some nastiness. Such as the suggestion that Christians have lower IQs...

And regarding this thread, maybe there has not been much anger, but I think there has been some nastiness. Such as the suggestion that Christians have lower IQs...

I don't think that anyone said that Christians in particular have lower IQs.

There have indeed been studies looking at the correlation between religiousness and intelligence. For example pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34449007/

@Lalupalina how nice of you to provide a study! Not the sort of scientific research I would pursue though. By its very nature that endeavour is divisive.

@heyhohello I agree with most of that - oppression is done by organisations after all. I don't have a problem for instance with people being opposed to abortion. But I am.opposed to people who demonstrate outside clinics to coerce vulnerable women into backing out. It's about not imposing your beliefs on others.

The IQ thing is one that interests me because at a population level it may be true. However, I would want to look at the methodology before choosing to believe it. Sampling, confounding factors and the Western cultural bias of IQ tests all need to be taken into account, so for now I'm sceptical. Certainly the friends I have who have faith don't fit that stereotype.

@pointythings I think it has been shown poverty is one of the factors that affects most greatly affects educational attainment. However, this can also be linked to cultural differences between the privileged classes and the underprivileged. And as you say, IQ tests are biased.

I don't really put great store in these kind of studies because if did I don't think my DC would have had access to half the opportunities I fought for them to have. My DC was classed as having severe additional educational needs and was given a Statement and significant funding to cater for these needs. And yet this Statemented , supposedly individual, funding ended up being spent on other children. My child's resource was utilised for purposes other than their individual needs. Which distorted the level of their actual needs for years. Until I got the Statement and attached funding ceased. Then all of a sudden my child's attainment was actually being acknowledged! They achieved very well (considering) once the additional 'help' was withdrawn. My DC is now at university without any additional support and looking forward to a career in research.