Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

That's ok. We stand on the shoulders of giants

Because it's more complicated than purely free will. In a sense we are all struggling with a nature that doesn't always desire the right things - although hopefully not these, specifically. This is the concept of Original Sin and its effects. So even our will isn't exactly the will we should have, there is also spiritual warfare going on. Thankfully most of us do have an automatic abhorrence for these things, but people who go far enough down the wrong path can become extremely warped. I believe we have an enormous capacity for good, but the capacity for evil is the other side of that coin.

I'm still not seeing why any of that means that an omnipotent deity couldn't simply choose not to allow those things to enter an otherwise entirely free-willed person's mind, never mind all the many other bad things about the world he could have avoided creating (without tampering with free will at all). This is obviously some alternative definition if 'omnipotent' that doesn't mean literally all-powerful. Besides, even if he allowed humans the free will to choose to act as evilly as they wanted, presumably god could just 'magic away' the effects or trauma on an innocent victim if he wanted?

What you're describing is not free will, or any kind of freedom really. I believe we are made in God's image,and this capacity for creativity is part of what enables us to do great things as well as really terrible things. But I agree, God could have made us without free will and could intervene in every situation which causes pain.

I believe we have an enormous capacity for good, but the capacity for evil is the other side of that coin.

I agree with that. However, I see no evidence that having faith is any protection against following through on our innate capacity for evil, should we choose to do so.

For the unbeliever, the fear of God is the fear of the judgment of God and eternal death, which is eternal separation from God

the article starts with the above - totally wrong - unbelievers don’t fear God because we don’t believe of his existence. I’m definitely not in awe - why should I be?

So what’s God’s purpose then - has made us of free will (obviously - couldn’t be anything else) but he doesn’t help those who are needing it?

I don't fear God. I believe he doesn't exist. If it turns out after I die that I was wrong then we can have a good old ding-dong argument about my life and the balance of it, and if he judges me for not believing in him then he can just push right off (being polite here).

I mentioned earlier about a Mumsnetters child who many people were praying for but who died anyway. This is going to sound combative, and I'm sorry, but how is free will involved in that situation?

If God created us to have our own free will, then what is his purpose? How is he helping or protecting us, as some of you believe? And why is he not helping so many innocent children suffering from cancer or those poor starving victims in Gaza?

That's ok, I don't think it's combative. It's an enormous challenge to faith. As I've said in previous answers, I don't believe physical suffering and death are what God actively wants for us as His children. A theological 'answer' (in inverted commas because I don't think simplistic answers are helpful) is that the presence of evil in this world has effects which include disease and death, even natural disasters and potentially the predatory nature of carnivorous animals are not part of the original creation. Sin and death go hand in hand in the Biblical narrative, like a moral and physical decay. And that makes sense because the world is both physical and spiritual/moral so it affects us holistically. That doesn't mean individual people 'deserve' to suffer, and I'm so sad for this little girl and her family.

I believe that Jesus came to show us God's love in a very tangible way, through His own suffering. So for me the answer is that God is with us in our suffering, not remote and uncaring in any way. And I also understand that our time on earth is like a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity, which even an atheist would agree with. It doesn't mean our lives and suffering in the here and now don't matter, and that is (part of) the message of Jesus life on earth, for me. Suffering can also call us all to greater compassion and love than we might otherwise experience and a keener sense of the preciousness of our lives and loved ones.

I believe that Jesus came to show us God's love in a very tangible way, through His own suffering

Why? What was the point of that?

@Parker231
Redemption, hope, love. I would imagine you've gleaned enough by now from these threads to at least understand the basics of a Christian worldview?

So redemption, hope, and love didn't exist more than 2000 years ago?

Hope and love aren’t solely associated with Christians - certainly not a characteristic of God from what I’m learn from this thread.

Yes, of course. Why do you ask that? As a Christian I believe Jesus is the fulfillment of all these things, not that things were hopeless and grim before.

And could only be achieved through the medium of human sacrifice. Nothing says love, hope and redemption like some good old fashioned biblical blood lust.

Not the only way perhaps, but the way God chose. I believe it was an act of self-sacrifice. If that's offensive to you then so be it.
Blood lust - maybe on the part of the people who took part.

Suffering can also call us all to greater compassion and love than we might otherwise experience and a keener sense of the preciousness of our lives and loved ones.

Do you have any idea how God chooses which family should suffer the loss of their child from cancer? What lesson is he teaching that poor family?

I've answered this genre of question as fully as I'm able, I'm not going to go over it all again as I don't think that's a productive use of time tbh.

@Mustardseed86 Yes, I realise that it's a difficult question that many Christians struggle with, and most come to the point you reach. Personally, it's not a position I find remotely acceptable- which is one of the main reasons I could never be a Christian.

I believe that Jesus came to show us God's love in a very tangible way, through His own suffering. So for me the answer is that God is with us in our suffering, not remote and uncaring in any way. And I also understand that our time on earth is like a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity, which even an atheist would agree with. It doesn't mean our lives and suffering in the here and now don't matter, and that is (part of) the message of Jesus life on earth, for me. Suffering can also call us all to greater compassion and love than we might otherwise experience and a keener sense of the preciousness of our lives and loved ones.

Does this imply that God is choosing to make some of us suffer? To give some of us faulty genes so we get cancer?

VincitVeritas1 · Yesterday 22:39

What knowledge does God have that the rest of us don’t?

Is that a serious question? @Parker231

Have copied the above from the previous thread which is now full so I can’t respond

Yes it’s a serious question

Does this imply that God is choosing to make some of us suffer? To give some of us faulty genes so we get cancer?

@Lalupalina

I've answered this as fully as I can in the same post you're quoting:

As I've said in previous answers, I don't believe physical suffering and death are what God actively wants for us as His children. A theological 'answer' (in inverted commas because I don't think simplistic answers are helpful) is that the presence of evil in this world has effects which include disease and death, even natural disasters and potentially the predatory nature of carnivorous animals are not part of the original creation. Sin and death go hand in hand in the Biblical narrative, like a moral and physical decay. And that makes sense because the world is both physical and spiritual/moral so it affects us holistically. That doesn't mean individual people 'deserve' to suffer.

I understand you want to keep discussing it, but as I said I really don't feel I have more to offer, I'm sorry. There may be other people who can give some better insight; there are certainly others who are more educated in the faith than me, e.g. a member of the clergy you could talk to.

I reckon maybe you'll be at the back of a very long queue for your turn to tell Him what you think of Him. I guess if you're all raving at an empty space (being as you said He doesn't exist), would it be inappropriate to hand around the popcorn?* 😜

*no need to answer that. I'll take myself off to a quiet corner to think about my behaviour.

As I said, upthread, following Christ is a choice. In the midst of the suffering that I have experienced in my life I have still chosen to follow Christ. Have faith in Him. Find hope in Him. Find peace and comfort in Him.

I find these things vitally important especially when the statistical odds & what is known from science had been against me and the people I care about. I have found hope actually has minimised my own suffering by allowing me to move on from very difficult circumstances both mentally and physically. Faith has helped me with being comfortable with the risks that exist simply because we don't know everything.

Pain and anguish I think is maximised when there is much anger/hurt over the unfairness of it. These emotions can keep people there, in a place of pain,o reliving it and not doing the things that are beneficial to recovery. And one thing we do know from science is how harmful chronic stress can be to health. Yet on the flip side we also know that an amount of stress which has been overcome can increase resilience.

So as many of the atheist posters on this thread have stated they don't wish to debate personal faith I think there must be at some level a recognition that the Christian faith can help people such as myself. So I will find hope in this too. Even amongst all the criticism of the Christian faith in general. Because the Christian church is full of individuals, each with their own individual faith.🙂