Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

Yes, it was aimed at me, and I agree with everything Lalupalina said!

I was listening to a sermon yesterday and I was reminded that Jesus told His disciples "Let the little children come to me and stop keeping them away, because the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to people like these". Matthew 19:14

It is a very wise person who knows what they do not know. In matters of Christian faith, we can have all the theology, eschatology, exegesis and hermeneutics in the world but 1Corinthians 8:2-3 If anyone thinks of themselves as knowledgable, they still have a lot to learn; but if a person passionately loves God, they will posses the knowledge of God.

Proverbs 9:10 Fear of the LORD is the foundation of wisdom. Knowledge of the Holy One results in good judgement.

She isn't silencing anyone at all.

By what mechanism? This makes no sense to me. Confused

What do you mean, by what mechanism? Why would god need a 'mechanism'? He allegedly created the world in all its incredible complexity. Surely creating a human mind which was capable of some things and not others, or which had some tendencies and no others, would be easy for him?

Your response has provided a perfect example of what I mean by Christians' convenient blind spot about god's omnipotence. 'God is omnipotent and capable of anything (but I can't possibly admit imagine he could do thing x, y or z which would have made the world a better place, because that would mean he was either not omnipotent or not benevolent be impossible / not make sense).'

@AllProperTeaIsTheft Ok. Free will is free will IMO. What you're describing sounds like perpetual childhood.

So how can a person actively make this choice when debate and critical inquiry is discouraged, when, in your own words, not every thing is up for debate?

@NotSoBetty, quite simply by deciding in their own hearts and minds whether they wish to accept or reject what has been said. Otherwise we could be swayed by any and every piece of persuasive argument / interpretation of the evidence which is presented/known about.

I am absolutely not interested in debating the faith of individuals. As I've said on this thread, what matters is what we do with what we believe, and if we take comfort from our beliefs then whatever gets us through the night is fine (exemptions exist for the obvious things like racial hatred and so on).

But there is a debate to be had on the impact belief has on the world we all have to live in. The problem with belief is that it often stops people from thinking and questioning when they come across things that do not fit in with their particular belief system. This applies to atheists as well, which is why I will never say that I KNOW there is no God - I don't rule out that at some point, something may happen to change my mind about that. It just hasn't happened yet. Everyone should follow the old X-files motto: Question Everything.

@Thegreatestoftheseislove I don't think acting out of fear leads to good decisions, not ever. A deity that demands fear is not one I want to accept.

i am actually not interested in your personal faith,

@NotSoBetty, feel free to ignore my posts then. I know there are other people who are interested so I can talk to them on here. 🙂

Ok, let’s agree to disagree. Like I said before, it is truly great that your personal faith has helped through out your life. I don’t have that kind of faith anymore, and I have found something else that serves me better. We all believe what we need to to get through life.

quite simply by deciding in their own hearts and minds whether they wish to accept or reject what has been said. Otherwise we could be swayed by any and every piece of persuasive argument / interpretation of the evidence which is presented/known about.

Firstly, our hearts are organs that pump blood and can't make decisions.

Secondly, yes we should make decisions with our mind, taking into account all the facts and arguments.

We should never just BLINDLY believe anything.

I'm interested, and really enjoy your style of posting. Thanks for staying with the thread.

And, imo, it's important to continue to be open minded and curious, to constantly question whether your views are still correct. It's ok to change your mind if the facts change.

So yes, we should be swayed by new facts or evidence.

Firstly, our hearts are organs that pump blood and can't make decisions.

@Lalupalina, our hearts pump life giving blood around our body. They are vital to life. Our hearts communicate back to the mind. If our hearts aren't happy our minds will certainly know about it! 😉

So yes, we should be swayed by new facts or evidence.

@Lalupalina, there is a balance to be had here though. Otherwise you could be swayed by every new and seemingly conflicting new piece of evidence before the whole picture is understood. It's typical analysis paralysis...the person who is overcome by this can never accept any risk or move forward in life.

@pointythings I don't think acting out of fear leads to good decisions, not ever. A deity that demands fear is not one I want to accept.

"Fear" in this context, means reverence it is not to be afraid, but more to be in awe of our Lord God Almighty as we are aware of our own weakness and lack.

@Thegreatestoftheseislove I don't think we need a deity in order to be aware of our own smallness and weakness in the face of the universe we live in. I don't think we need a deity in order to treat our world and our fellow people with reverence and respect either. Atheists manage to do these things every day, as indeed do many people of faith. Equally, there are atheists and believers who wilfully fail at these things every day - one has but to look at Bible bashing climate change deniers in the US and the people running the cult of personality that is North Korea.

Hi @pointythings It not our smallness in the face of the universe but, more, it's in acknowledging the mighty-ness of the Lord God Almighty.

I acknowledge your own stated lack of need of 'a deity'. You do you. 🙂

For Christians we have Christ Jesus. Knowing Him and loving Him we want to maintain the relationship, and the knowledge that brings to our lives and how we wish to live.

As I said elsewhere about labels given and claimed, in respect of 'Christian': the LORD knows those who love Him with all their soul, minds and strength - just has He knows those who pay mere lip-service and who are wolves in sheep's clothing, and false teachers. He gives those who love Him the gift of wisdom and discernment through the Holy Spirit to be aware of the difference.

Sadly, for those who do not love Him, when it comes to the 'christian religion' they are more easily fooled and take false teachings as 'gospel', especially if it fits in with their own bias. It was ever thus.

@Mustardseed86,

I'm interested, and really enjoy your style of posting. Thanks for staying with the thread.

Thank you, very kind of you to say so. It is much appreciated. I enjoy reading your posts too. 🙂

It not our smallness in the face of the universebut, more, it's in acknowledging the mighty-ness of the Lord God Almighty.

If you're a Christian, yes. If you're an atheist, no. The point I am making is that there is not one single correct way to live life and be a decent human being. There are many.

"Fear" in this context, means reverence it is not to be afraid, but more to be in awe of our Lord God Almighty as we are aware of our own weakness and lack

But how do you know that whenever 'fear of God' appears in the Bible, they meant 'awe' though? Clearly, as times become more enlightened, the more fire and brimstone aspects of Christianity have been toned down, otherwise Christianity would have become more unpopular more quickly than it has.

To me it has always seemed very disingenuous and sneaky to perpetually tinker around with the messages of your holy book to make them ever milder and more palatable to the potential waverers. I mean yes, sure, interpreting something that was written so long ago and far away is going to be difficult at times, but if all you have to go on is what it actually says, then surely there's not that much wiggle room?

@AllProperTeaIsTheft Ok. Free will is free will IMO. What you're describing sounds like perpetual childhood.

Really? I don't think that, for example, creating human beings with free will exactly as we are now, but with an automatic, total and universal abhorrence of killing other humans or of having sexual feelings for children, would create 'perpetual childhood' or have any negative effects on human existence at all. Why is 'free will free will'? Clearly your omnipotent god wasn't incapable of deciding what instincts humans did and didn't need to have, as he certainly gave us quite a lot of them and didn't give us others. Ditto with animals.

And what knowledge does God have that we don’t?

There’s a negative correlation between IQ and religious beliefs (lower cognitive abilities of individuals reporting stronger religious beliefs). Just saying.

But how do you know that whenever 'fear of God' appears in the Bible, they meant 'awe' though?

Because that really is closer to the meaning as far as we can tell.
It's the same root as what we translate as God's "awesome" name and "awesome" works (which in turn as you know doesn't just mean really cool and great - language changes).

with an automatic, total and universal abhorrence of killing other humans or of having sexual feelings for children

Because it's more complicated than purely free will. In a sense we are all struggling with a nature that doesn't always desire the right things - although hopefully not these, specifically. This is the concept of Original Sin and its effects. So even our will isn't exactly the will we should have, there is also spiritual warfare going on. Thankfully most of us do have an automatic abhorrence for these things, but people who go far enough down the wrong path can become extremely warped. I believe we have an enormous capacity for good, but the capacity for evil is the other side of that coin.

Wise words.