Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

I already answered that above.

Where did I insist that that study proves that prayer works? I didn't. I actually said it was problematic and I don't think you can do a study like that as there are too many variables for it to be accurate.

What explanation do you have for the two people who experienced instant healing after prayer? These are medically documents with scans etc.

I have no need to prove that prayer works. I've seen miracles happen myself. I fully accept people won't believe that. But I was told that people would believe miracles happen if there was medical evidence of them. I posted two reports, one of a blind women who could see, and one of a boy who was tube fed since a baby and suddenly his condition disappeared and he could eat normally after being prayed for at 16. But people will simply explain away what doesn't accord with their world view.

I also have plenty of evidence that prayer doesn't always "work". I've experienced cancer, bereavement, trauma etc and God hasn't taken those away. But he has answered other prayers and I have had supernatural experiences and seen miracles happen. I don't have answer to why some prayers seem to be answered and others don't, and I would be surprised if you could find any Christian that does have a good answer to that. I guess faith wouldn't be faith if we had all the answers.

I don't think she insisted that Google proves prayer works. You can never have a proper trial of that anyway - millions of people are praying every day, including offering prayers for the sick and other people they don't know. And it would be pretty unfair if God only cared about people lucky enough to have others who bother to pray for them. It's just a silly idea for a study really.

People will continue to have their own experiences of God and prayer, regardless of aggressive claims one way or another.

I also posted a study on miraculous healing earlier in the thread if you're interested, but I don't think these studies are particularly helpful in terms of convincing people one way or another. I find it interesting, but that's all.

It's just funny how none of these "miracles" ever appear on camera, or in scientific study. They are only ever claims, not evidence.

A lot, not all, of the bad things in this world are the fault of us as humans. War, famine, poverty, crime, emotional pain, a lot of illness.

It's just as much god's fault (or it would be, if he existed). He chose to make humans the way they are. But even if he inexplicably decided to stick with the 'I'll make humans capable of appalling evil, rather than making them good, but able to decide between a range of being absolutely saintly and a bit rubbish', he could still have chosen to create a physical world which could not respond to humans' failings with disease, earthquakes and tsunamis.

In answer to the 'If there were no disease, would we all live forever?' question... well, no need for that. He could have decided we'd all live until about 90, then would all peacefully and painlessly die of old age in our sleep. If only he'd thought if it, eh?

Christians often seem to have an oddly convenient blind spot when it comes to god's omnipotence. If he can do literally anything, then he could definitely have done a better job, even within the 'Free will' parameter (which itself is clearly a very convenient excuse - Christians must have been very pleased with themselves when they thought that one up!).

You've been shown at least a couple of well documented examples, I highly doubt you would be any more interested in God if you saw a video (which probably do exist but would be easy to fake anyway so not particularly useful).

What makes you think God wants to be treated transactionally? "We know if we pray 'X' ten times this will happen, so now come up with the goods please!" That's not a relationship.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft

'I'll make humans capable of appalling evil, rather than making them good, but able to decide between a range of being absolutely saintly and a bit rubbish'

By what mechanism? This makes no sense to me.

A lot, not all, of the bad things in this world are the fault of us as humans. War, famine, poverty, crime, emotional pain, a lot of illness.

No, ALL bad things are caused by humans, animals or other aspects of nature.

Equally, ALL good things are caused by humans, animal ma or other natural events.

Because there is no god.

Christians always want to ascribe any good things to a god, but have you ever considered that God may be bad? That our lives would be better without his involvement?

Why have blind faith in something we know ow nothing about and give him all the credit for good things but don't blame him for all the terrible disease and suffering??

Religion and matters of faith are definitely up for debate, definitely should be critically examined. They should not be untouchable. People can’t be silenced like that, especially over something that cannot be proven to actually be true.

But I guess the alternative is we would live forever i.e. nothing ever goes wrong in our bodies, therefore no aging etc? But then I don't believe God would want us to live forever in a world where people are so cruel to each other.

Well of course there are other alternatives to living forever! Jesus didn't die and he didn't live forever either (according to the bible).

I still haven't heard a good explanation for genetic diseases. Or any evidence for the Christian god being a god of love.

What makes you think God wants to be treated transactionally? "We know if we pray 'X' ten times this will happen, so now come up with the goods please!" That's not a relationship.

God is our father, right? If my child was sick and I had the capability to make them well, then I would, regardless of whether I had a good relationship with them or not. As you say, it shouldn't be transactional.

You've been shown at least a couple of well documented examples, I highly doubt you would be any more interested in God if you saw a video (which probably do exist but would be easy to fake anyway so not particularly useful).

No, we've not seen a convincing and consistent amount of evidence of 'miracles'. Unlike what you claim, I would absolutely believe in such supernatural powers (whether from a God or other source) if I actually witnessed them.

If God really cared about us believing in him, then why not reveal himself clearly and openly?

@Lalupalina
That post was addressing someone else.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on evidence

But I guess the alternative is we would live forever i.e. nothing ever goes wrong in our bodies, therefore no aging etc? But then I don't believe God would want us to live forever in a world where people are so cruel to each other.

No, the alternative to children cruelly dying from cancer is not 'living forever'

Why would this God not let this child live a normal healthy life into old age?

@Mustardseed86 I don't see normal ageing with the infirmities it inevitably brings as equivalent to genetically-rooted cancers. I just don't. I would not have an issue with a deity creating sentient beings with a finite lifespan. I don't even have an issue with suffering - because shit happens and as you have said, some of it is due to bad choices made by people.

But building in things like cancerous mutations is a step too far. That's not acceptable behaviour. If an entity has the power to not do that, they should use it - or not claim to be all loving, all knowing, all powerful and all benevolent. That isn't about free will any more. If we humans can find a middle way in difficult situations, so should a deity be able to do.

@NotSoBetty my faith is not up for debate. And you can't actively debate it with me if I refuse to engage in a debate concerning it...you'd be just howling at the moon.

When I post on here it is in terms of talking about my lived experiences. When I quote the Bible it is to illustrate how what I believe lines up with Christianity. Take it or leave it.

I'm not up for an interrogation!

Can we talk about it like this? If we consider some of Jesus's miracles, casting out demons, curing paralysis, raising from the dead, for example, are potentially mental health issues-some form of hysteria, catatonic or other mental health issues.Similar things happen in some churches today. You might say miracle-I say psychosomatic illness where a charismatic person helps a sufferer heal themselves. Draft of fishes and calming the storm? Coincidence to me, miracles to you.Fine unless the charismatic person goes on to encourage the ignoring of medical advice and weather forecasts. Pretty unprovable either way, then or now- Jesus didn't make people's legs grow back. But water into wine? If somebody told you that happened at a wedding yesterday-would you just believe that? Without actually seeing it happening? Surely not. So that's why I don't ask for evidence of faith-but I do ask for evidence of actual physical things.

@heyhohello this is Mumsnet. No board is, or should be, exempt from debate. I'm disappointed to see you think otherwise.

Fair points @Reallybadidea . Obviously I don't agree with your assessment and I believe Jesus is alive and there is life after our physical bodies die. As I said, I don't think suffering is what God wanted but allows for a time. That's my belief, obviously I understand why others may not agree.

@pointythings, the board does not have to be exempt. I don't expect it to be either. You lot can debate all you like. I'm exempting myself from it, that's all. 🙂

But building in things like cancerous mutations is a step too far. That's not acceptable behaviour.

That's a very good point. Why would a benevolent kind omnipotent God so such a cruel thing to an innocent child or adult? That has nothing to do with free will at all. It's just cruel,

That actually makes you wonder whether God (if he even exists) is actually just playing with us humans, and experimenting on us for his own enjoyment. Who knows??

@pointythings People don't have to engage in debate about their beliefs if they don't want to. Some people prefer to share personal feelings, experiences or beliefs. That is also part of the discussion and doesn't preclude others debating and disagreeing, as you know. I think there's room to be respectful and not pull apart others' experiences they choose to share.

So how can a person actively make this choice when debate and critical inquiry is discouraged, when, in your own words, not every thing is up for debate?

A lot of contradictions on here and in Christianity in general which made me think... If you need to have faith to be a Christian, why do so many Christians say that god revealed himself to them? If he revealed himself you don't have faith anymore, you have knowledge. So either you don't actually need faith or all those Christians who asked for proof and received it have been damned by it. Maybe I should be grateful he never revealed himself to me!