Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

That's an interesting way to paraphrase the topic of the thread.

I believe evidence has been shared as to the foundations of Christianity specifically, the effects of prayer and the occurrence of miracles. The fact that these have been rebuffed or ignored doesn't overly surprise me, but it's a bit misleading to say there's a lack of evidence.

What it really comes down to is that you won't accept evidence that doesn't fit your worldview, unless perhaps you had a first-hand experience. Which is fine, but that's not lack of evidence.

It's why ultimately faith is a personal thing. The principle of personal conscience and intellectual freedom is very important so no issues there.

Tbh I don't know if I agree with the ethical foundations of a study deliberately choosing to pray for some people at random and others not, and you can't control for someone's devout great aunt in the 'wrong' group (or whatever). I highly doubt we will 'find God' within the bounds of a controlled double-blind trial, anyway.

@Parker231

But there’s no evidence he has infinite knowledge, love or mercy.

As I have said repeatedly I am not concerned with scientific evidence with regard to the /my Christian faith. As I have said scientific evidence cannot be applied to spiritual matters since the spiritual is not physical matter. I am talking here from my own experiential knowledge, my own lived experiences.

As I have said repeatedly I am not concerned with scientific evidence with regard to the /my Christian faith. As I have said scientific evidence cannot be applied to spiritual matters since the spiritual is not physical matter. I am talking here from my own experiential knowledge, my own lived experiences.

But there is not just no scientific evidence for God's existence but there is not ANY objective evidence for his existence.

We know that prayer doesn't always "work". God isn't a genie who grants our wishes.

Then what is he? What is his 'purpose' (assuming he even exists)??

He doesn't sound very interested helping children and families in Gaza or children dying of cancer? He sounds quite manipulative actually.

@Mustardseed86 "What it really comes down to is that you won't accept evidence that doesn't fit your worldview, unless perhaps you had a first-hand experience. Which is fine, but that's not lack of evidence."

No. I won't accept evidence that won't stand up to scientific scrutiny when it's about something concrete and provable, like a miraculous cure, a resurrection or turning water into wine. Obviously someone getting solace and comfort from their belief isn't provable, although it may well improve their mental health or be effective for stress related illnesses. Like homeopathy or acupuncture-they don't actually have a physical effect but they do make some people feel better. So I am not going to debate the existence of faith. I know faith exists.I will, however, debate any claims of the existence of god as a real external presence or of his actual physical actions in the world.

I wonder what makes some people have a faith and others not? For me I can’t see any positive benefits of following any faith so although this thread has been really interesting, it’s not something that impacts my life.

I challenge you to read those medical reports in full and with as open a mind as you can manage.

I have read them with a lot of interest. There are as many studies showing people fared better as there are those where people fared worse after prayer. This means it's completely random and has nothing to do with prayer!

As I asked earlier, why don't we do an experiment and get together and pray that god cures all our friends and families of cancer? If he was so powerful and kind, then he surely would? That would convince me (and a lot of people)!!!

They've probably been brought up in a religious household. Children tend to accept what their parents tell them.

They'd probably follow a different faith if they'd grown up in a Buddhist or Muslim community

When it comes to God, I'm with Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

This pretty much sums up why I choose to believe there is no God. The alternatives are all intolerable.

No. I won't accept evidence that won't stand up to scientific scrutiny when it's about something concrete and provable, like a miraculous cure, a resurrection or turning water into wine.

Exactly - you won't accept anything outside a materialist worldview. You can't 'prove' anything from history in that sense anyway.

Good summary!

@Mustardseed86 "Exactly - you won't accept anything outside a materialist worldview. You can't 'prove' anything from history in that sense anyway"

It would be good if you'd do me the courtesy of reading my whole post.

I think it would be the second option, but not malevolence but rather human free will.

@Mustardseed86 but that falls down when you're talking about people getting cancer, natural disasters etc. There is no free will involved in any of that, so it looks like an unwillingness on the part of an omnipotent deity to act. I have two friends who have the BRCA gene - they didn't choose that. Why, if there is an omnipotent, benevolent God, is it allowed to exist?

I did read your post - maybe I misunderstood something.

So you won't accept a phenomenon that can't be demonstrated according to scientific methods (i.e. predictable/ repeatable when the same conditions are present, usually by some mechanism that's understood). And any other type of evidence such as the examples @Gumbear provided wouldn't be acceptable, or anything that someone claims they've experienced. You mentioned Biblical miracles which obviously occurred in the past so we can't prove them now in that sense.

If I've said something incorrect, could you just explain that? There's no need to be unpleasant.

Did you read the two reports of people instantly being healed of their conditions? What is your explanation of those?

I don't think the trials on the benefits of prayer help either side of the argument. For many reasons, but also because you can't control who else might be praying for these people. There are too many variables.

Also. It wouldn't convince you as you would find an alternative explanation for it that has nothing to do with God.

Did you read the two reports of people instantly being healed of their conditions? What is your explanation of those?

Did you read the report I posted on the negative impact of prayer - what’s your explanation?

So what’s the point of god if it’s left to human free will? He isn’t doing anything then? What’s his purpose?

@pointythings I'm really sorry to hear that.

Cancer and other diseases, physical suffering, is terrible. But I guess the alternative is we would live forever i.e. nothing ever goes wrong in our bodies, therefore no aging etc? But then I don't believe God would want us to live forever in a world where people are so cruel to each other.

I think we've discussed the concept of the 'Fall' before so my beliefs are from that perspective, that this isn't what God wanted but has chosen to allow us to experience for a time.

And as I said earlier - every google you can do, I can do better!

You insist that your googles prove that prayer works, well, I can insist that mine prove it doesn't. Your "miracles" are well within the boundaries of error, and certainly the approach can sometimes be called into question. This study is interesting in that it had a group who knew they were being prayed for, a group who didn't know they were being prayed for, and a group not being prayed for. The group that knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse...

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-mar-31-sci-prayer31-story.html

So basically he isn’t going to help people? Seems very cruel to let people suffer when he is meant to be kind and merciful?

I think it would be the second option, but not malevolence but rather human free will.

But he could have given humans free will to behave as they choose, but not created a world where disease or natural disasters were possible, for example, couldn't he? There are so many things he could have avoided including in creation at all, while still creating human beings capable of deciding what they wanted to do. If 'he" existed, which he clearly doesn't.

@pointythings That's rather all or nothing. I would say God does intervene at times, but doesn't promise us a life without suffering.

Maybe we'd be better off without free will, it sounds a bit strange to me - I don't really think there'd be a 'me' if I didn't have the capacity to make choices.

A lot, not all, of the bad things in this world are the fault of us as humans. War, famine, poverty, crime, emotional pain, a lot of illness.

We all hurt people and cause others pain all the time. Whether it's at one end of the spectrum where someone drink drives and kills someone or at the other end where someone accidentally really upsets someone by something they say. For God to act in every circumstance to protect us from harm, he would have to control us all completely - mind and body. We would all be robots or, rather, puppets controlled by God.

But instead he gives us free will. With that comes the capacity to cause illness (eg loads of diseases are preventable by lifestyle changes), kill others, hurt others, cause ourselves harm, create hatred and division etc. If you want God to stop all evil then the only way to do it is for him to control us completely.

The other question is things like natural disasters. As I said before, the Biblical answer to that is that humankind allowed evil (the devil) into God's perfect creation. And the devil is allowed to cause havoc on earth for a period of time. But one day there will be a new heaven and a new earth where there is no evil. "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

This doesn't always seem a great answer to me when you see things like children suffering with cancer. All I can say is that my personal experience of God is that he is good and I truly believe that. This doesn't answer all of my questions but it is enough for me to put my faith in him. My entire family growing up were and are atheists. I came to faith at university through a combination of investigating the evidence for Jesus and the resurrection and a supernatural experience. My parents and siblings are still completely dismissive of my faith so I'm used to all of the usual scoffing and contempt.