Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

Nothing I’ve read on this thread has changed my opinions but as I see it some people need a faith and the rest of us, don’t and live a good life as atheists.
I think organised religion can be dangerous. It seems that god requires compliance and put on a pedestal for worshipping - still haven’t worked out why?

@Parker231 something to do with God having infinite knowledge, love and mercy I suppose. He literally does know best. 🙂

A good analogy I feel is within our own bodies. Although each of our organs communicates back to our brains and each of our cells has its own nucleus, problems occur if our bodies, our cells try to act independently. Similarly with each of the micro biome cells which inhabit us. If any of this acts independently from the whole, the governance of the brain, then we get ill.

You’re writing as if it’s a fact - God doesn’t have infinite knowledge, love and mercy or know best because you say so. He exists to you but not to me.

You essentially claim your miraculous recovery is proof of god and spirit, and you refuse to properly debate this, on a debating forum. You say that you are providing this as information. This your personal truth, but not mine, and I believe it’s actually not proof of anything. But as I have said, up thread. It doesn’t matter what I think, in regards to your personal life journey, it’s what you think about your lived experience that matters the most, but it’s not my truth.

@NotSoBetty I never claimed my experience was scientific proof. In fact I have posted at length to emphasise that I don't regard scientific proof relevant when talking about matters of faith.

@Gumbear "Yesterday posters said they would believe in the existence of miracles is there was evidence of them. I posted two medical reports of instant miracles after prayer and those same believe still didn't believe them."

No you didn't. You posted examples of instant miracles that the people presenting thought worthy of further investigation. Absolutely no evidence except hearsay and one of them happened 47 years ago. Also, the people presenting said miracles come from a religious focussed organisation with a vested interest in proving miracles are real.

And this is a discussion board not a debating board. Not everything is up for debate. Sometimes people just want to talk about and swap lived experiences. And that is great. 🙂

God doesn’t have infinite knowledge, love and mercy or know best because you say so.

@Parker231, you're quite right, there. I agree with you. Because of what I say, or what any other person says, is not the reason. 😉

You obviously didn't read the medical reports then. There was incontrovertible evidence including scan pictures.

The "this requires further research" comment was the medics saying that there should be further research in the area. Not doubting the veracity of what happened in this case.

Thankfully medical successes happen but they have nothing to do with someone praying for the patient.

Did you read the two reports?

Yes

@Gumbear "You obviously didn't read the medical reports then. There was incontrovertible evidence including scan pictures."

Apologies. I'll revisit.

Discuss and debate are synonyms.

Article from NY Times - At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico, involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse.31 Mar 2006

https://ffrf.org/about/getting-acquainted/item/12869-biggest-study-prayer-harmful-to-patients

I have no idea as they never happened but surely god knows.

Thank you - good to agree!

What is the reason?

We know that prayer doesn't always "work". God isn't a genie who grants our wishes. And as I said before it's a real challenge as a Christian to understand why some prayers are answered and others aren't.

But I was challenged to find a single occurrence of a miracle that was medically evidenced. I found two. But they're still dismissed.

This all evidences my point that even people who experience miracles find a way to explain them away and refuse to accept it was really a miracle.

I challenge you to read those medical reports in full and with as open a mind as you can manage.

Have you read my post with the link to article about the negative effects of prayer?

Yes. What do you think it proves?

If prayer is harmful then it must be "real" surely? There must be a supernatural being listening to these prayers and making them worse?

My opinion - miracles happen but nothing to do with prayer or anyone having any faith. Big G isn’t looking after anyone.

@Parker231
What is the reason?

God is, of course! God doesn't have infinite knowledge, love and mercy because of what I say or what any person says but because of Him. He is the reason.

But there’s no evidence he has infinite knowledge, love or mercy.