Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

I'd like to understand your views on this!

@sunflowerpinks, it's an impossible question to answer. Everybody is individual with individual strengths and weaknesses. I don't live anyone else's life and am not them so I can't say how exactly faith would affect them/their life.

I feel my faith has helped me. It's not up for discussion or to be pulled apart. I think if you read my posts upthread you will see some of the experiences I have had that my faith has helped me through.

I think if you read my posts upthread you will see some of the experiences I have had that my faith has helped me through.

That may well be your feeling and I respect that of course.

However, I do not 'see' how your faith has helped you through (as you are suggesting that I see)

What evidence is there that your someone's faith is responsible for their life experiences?
What evidence is there that these are positive rather than negative? In other words, how do we know that one's life was actually improved rather than harmed through faith? Perhaps it would have turned out the same or even better without faith?

Of course anything that helps you and makes you feel better is good, but I guess I struggle with the view that a divine figure rather than my own actions determine my life.

Of course anything that helps you and makes you feel better is good, but I guess I struggle with the view that a divine figure rather than my own actions determine my life.

@sunflowerpinks

The things I have overcome were really against the odds. My very chances for survival at one point were not great. There were no particular (non faith based) actions for me to take that were guaranteed or even that likely to work. My faith really was and is vital to me.

The things I have overcome were really against the odds. My very chances for survival at one point were not great.

It's great that you survived despite the low probability of survival! But even a low probability of say 10% still means that 10 out of every 100 do survive.

@sunflowerpinks, that's just one event. I have overcome many events in my life where the odds were not great. My faith informed me as I went along and is a comfort. As I said it is not up for debate. My life is an anomaly statistically speaking. It's not necessarily an easy place to be when society's structures operate by probabilities. And to be honest I really don't like my life being reduced to a number.

my position is that you should watch out so you are not deceived regardless of the how and when of the book of Revelation. Who wants to be decieved at any time?

I think that’s a very sensible approach @heyhohello Although, I would add, knowing the signs of the last days is particularly important because it will be a time of unprecedented deception, requiring a great deal of discernment to avoid.

@Kdtym10

You might think it’s necessary to have a “strong leadership team” I think this is very dangerous. It sounds like they don’t take kindly to being questioned.

Why do you think that? They’re more than happy to talk through any questions that might come up. This is not about gatekeeping - I am of the same opinion as @heyhohello on that point.

John did specify to use Gematria

I must once again disagree - the method was not specified.

It happens that Nero fits the two numbers we have in revelations about the beast - 666 and the earlier 616.

As I said before, Nero is not the only name that can be made from these two numbers. It is not a cut and dry case at all.

what do you think it means? Why not Nero?

I have covered these questions in previous posts and don’t wish to go over them again.

Actually “ye are Gods”

Could you explain this further? What do you think Jesus meant when he said, “The Kingdom of God is within you”?

Interesting that you think it’s preordained Jesus will beat the Anti christ - why bother with the whole farce then?

Yes, I believe it has been preordained. Why bother with anything? It’s one of the great mysteries, which I’m sure will be revealed at the appointed time.

So are you anticipating the 12 tribes of Israel will be reunited if the third Jerusalem is “ all set to go”

I believe this was (at least partially) fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became an independent nation-state.

people have been predicting the end of the world is nigh for millennia.

That's true, but there has never been as much reason to believe than there is today.

Apparently this predisposition is linked with ego and the inability to think the world could possibly continue without you.

This is rather unfair and couldn’t be further from the truth in my case.

quote me the passages you’re talking about re Jesus being more than a man

I won’t write them all out or the post will be far too long! Here are just some examples:
https://www.openbible.info/topics/jesus_being_god

Mark the short (most think original ending)

Are you referring to the gospel of Mark, as recorded in the Bible?

Mark which begins with God identifying Jesus status at his baptism (no mention of life pre 30) then meeting his disciples in Galilee. I believe this is the proper reading re cycles.

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that because Mark didn’t mention the birth of Jesus, it didn’t happen?

Re end of days. How do you know the Christian church is not deceiving you.

The Church isn’t telling me anything. I can ascertain such things for myself.

Seen any angels blowing trumpets etc? Of course it’s necessary to understand the symbology in revelation if you’re looking for signs. Unless you think it is all very literal.

That’s correct, I do take a far more literal approach. We don’t (usually) see angels, or other spirits because they are spiritual beings and operate in the spiritual realm.

So what is the only way to the divine in your eyes?

Please see the Bible verses given above. The short answer is found in John 14:6; Jesus said, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Why do you think that the writings of 2000 plus years ago were Gods last work on the subject, has he been suffering from writers block ever since.

We have something far better than the written word since the first Pentecost, in the form of the Holy Spirit!

Chris de Burghs words are probably just as valid as Luke’s.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think Chris de Burgh has actually met anyone who was an eye witnesses to Jesus’ ministry, unlike Luke.

why can’t the poet be speaking Gods words. Who are you to decide who is speaking Gods truth

People can absolutely still speak God’s truth today, the key to discerning it’s legitimacy is whether or not it aligns with what we already know from Scripture. Having said that, I think there are far too many amateur 'prophets' around at the moment who over-confidently proclaim "Thus said the Lord", without any real basis for it.

Although, I would add, knowing the signs of the last days is particularly important because it will be a time of unprecedented deception, requiring a great deal of discernment to avoid.

@VincitVeritas1, I think it's also important to have faith Christ will lead me. The parable of the lost sheep and the lost coins comes to mind. Being brutally honest I don't currently wholly understand all of the book of Revelation. But I know Christ does so aim to abide in Him and hopefully grow in understanding in the fullness of time.

This is depressing - we’ve been through what will happen to you if you don’t toe the line and do as you are told but now “the last days” are being contemplated. Better to be free and simply enjoy life.

@Parker231 I do. 🙂 I just needed the addition of faith for this. But I have faith so all is good.

But I know Christ does

What makes you think that he does? What evidence is there?

@sunflowerpinks,

What makes you think that he does? What evidence is there?

my life!

We are not facing the last days - the world will continue with or without religion. Some parts of the world would be much better off without religion - less war and conflict.

@Parker231 I still need my faith and value it regardless of last days.

Thing is, all of this 'end of days' stuff is incredibly human-centric. Even if we are stupid enough to blow up our world soon (and we might be) then something will survive and flourish in time. It just won't be us. No big deal. We aren't the summit of everything.

Don't believe in Heaven or Hell. From dust to dust for me.

Another world war would more than likely be nuclear. No amount of religion would save anyone or anything. No one will go to heaven or hell - we’ll all end up as a pile of ash!

Even if we are stupid enough to blow up our world soon (and we might be) then something will survive and flourish in time. It just won't be us.

Yep. Cockroaches, spiders and rats. To lower the tone, it’s a bit Monty Python Meaning of Life, if you remember their take on All Things Bright and Beautiful.

I find it hard to believe anything literal at all about Revelations, even while I reflect on how early first-millennium time travellers might be driven mad trying to navigate the 21st century. In common with most doomsday prophecies, it has a way of tapping into our darkest fears, and I think it’s these we need to pay attention to, not whether Putin is the Antichrist or whether Elon Musk’s name adds up to 666 in Sanskrit or Hebrew or ancient Greek.

I’m sorry, I can’t find your original quote re the leadership team but there would have been a reason I wrote it. Usually a “strong leadership team” in a church means a lack of flexibility and and in willingness to listen to alternative views. But if you can pull out the original quote happy to discuss.

Re using Gematria- yea it was specified - let him who hath understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. What other methods of calculation based on the name of a man do you know? What are the alternatives you are proposing here, who else are you suggesting equates to both 626 and 666? As far as I can remember you haven’t explained this previously. Perhaps you can point me to those posts if you don’t want to re type.

What is meant by “ye are gods”? Well precisely that

what is meant by the kingdom of god is within you. The type of Jewish mysticism of which Paul was a likely initiate and therefore most likely influenced his disciple Luke involved a journey within youre self to find and see the Chariot Throne of Eziekiel fame. - it’s the journey of the imagination as later prophets would discuss.

If it’s preordained jesus will beat the antichrist the whole charade is completely pointless. Do you also believe in the concept of double presdestination?

Well we don’t normally see angels (although they make appearances through the bible), they are due to appear at the end of times with the breaking of the seals (also a concept from contemporary Jewish mysticism), where are they??

Well if we have something “far better than the written word” why bother with scripture? I would say the poet is far close to the words of jesus that much of mainstream Christianity.

And yes the early church had beliefs re reincarnation- what I’m saying about Mark is you can re read it, it ends with the message he will see the disciples in Galaliee, which he does if you re read the book.

was Jesus born? Well let’s look at the first time we meet Jesus - his immersion in water. If you look at Plato (and picked up later by the neo platonists). Being born into this word was connected with the concept of water, dew, rivers and fountains. And look where Mark starts, look at when God announces Jesus as his son. It’s pure Platonism.

Well if we have something “far better than the written word” why bother with scripture?

@Kdtym10, now this makes my brain itch but bear with me, I'll see if I can explain. It's like the relationship between language and thought which is complex. Not only does language communicate thought but it affects it.

"Here are a few ways that language can influence our thinking:
1 Organizing perceptions and concepts: Language provides a structure for organizing our perceptions and concepts. For example, the existence of color words in a language can influence the way that people perceive and categorize colors.
2 Influencing memory: The words that we use to describe events can influence the way we remember them. For example, people are more likely to remember events that they have described in their own language, and people who use more descriptive language tend to have better recall of events.
3 Affecting decision making: The way that information is presented in language can influence our decision making. For example, the framing of a problem or decision in a particular way can influence how people approach it and the choices they make.
4 Shaping cultural values: Language can reflect and reinforce cultural values and beliefs, and can also help to shape them. For example, the way that a language distinguishes between singular and plural can reflect cultural values related to individualism or collectivism.
5 Enabling communication and social interaction: Language is a tool for communication and social interaction, and it shapes the way we interact with others. For example, the use of polite forms of address in a language can reflect cultural norms related to respect and social hierarchy."(Courtesy of Chat GPT)

Jesus said,

"The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[a] and life." (John 6:63)

So this is how the Bible can be described as the 'living word'. And our interaction with it, our understanding and interpretation goes deeper than simply reading and evaluation what other people think. It engages our whole being. So you can't really separate The Bible from the Spirit. As in John 1..the Word being God and becoming flesh with Jesus.

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.
6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:1-14)

Oh and eradicating certain language and terms can have an effect too. Here:

"The eradication of particular terms from language can have a number of implications, both positive and negative, depending on the specific terms and the context in which they are used. Here are a few possible implications:
1 Loss of cultural and historical knowledge: Language is often tied to the culture and history of a particular group of people. Eradicating certain terms from a language can lead to the loss of cultural and historical knowledge associated with those terms. For example, if a language were to eradicate terms related to traditional forms of agriculture, it could lead to a loss of knowledge about those practices.
2 Reduced ability to communicate: Language is a means of communication, and eradicating certain terms from a language can reduce the ability of speakers to communicate effectively. For example, if a language were to eradicate terms related to emotions, it could make it harder for speakers to express their feelings to others.
3 Inclusivity and respect: Eradicating certain terms from a language can be a way of promoting inclusivity and respect for marginalized groups. For example, if a language were to eradicate terms that are derogatory towards women or people of a certain race, it could promote a more respectful and inclusive society.
4 Restriction of thought and expression: Eradicating certain terms from a language can also restrict the range of thought and expression of speakers. For example, if a language were to eradicate terms related to dissent or political opposition, it could limit the ability of speakers
to express critical views."

(Chat GPT)

@Kdtym10 so in short it's not an either or. Spirit is contained in scripture.