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Philosophy/religion

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Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

1000 replies

VincitVeritas1 · 06/12/2023 17:45

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
heyhohello · 26/01/2024 07:37

That he was speaking of gods doctrine?

@Kdtym10, bearing in mind the previous verse,

"15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John 7:15)

What form do you think God's doctrine took? The Jews saw no evidence of learning as they understood it to occur. Plus doesn't it also suggest that God's doctrine serves the receivers of it well in the company of people who learn in the more widely accepted, conventional fashion in society?

Kdtym10 · 26/01/2024 07:48

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 06:54

Im more of an emanationist. So believe everything is an emanation of God

@Kdtym10, including this conversation? So what have you learnt from it?

iI would say it’s more reinforced the position many Christians can’t handle historical facts as they go against what they’ve been deceived into believing.

What have you learned from it more to the point?

Kdtym10 · 26/01/2024 07:56

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 07:37

That he was speaking of gods doctrine?

@Kdtym10, bearing in mind the previous verse,

"15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John 7:15)

What form do you think God's doctrine took? The Jews saw no evidence of learning as they understood it to occur. Plus doesn't it also suggest that God's doctrine serves the receivers of it well in the company of people who learn in the more widely accepted, conventional fashion in society?

He was probably a very talented pupil, most likely neuro divergent so saw things, in different ways. Like all Jewish boys by 12 he would have been learning all about Judaism for 6-7 years. Like most things in the bible the incident was probably exaggerated/made up. I always look at what was in Mark - Matthew and Luke were just embellishments of Mark. John went a totally different and more esoteric path.

https://coveredinthedustoftherabbi.wordpress.com/about/bet-sefer/

Bet Sefer

The Mishnah describes the educational process for a young Jewish boy in Jesus’ time. At five years old [one is fit] for the Scripture, at ten years the Mishnah (oral Torah, interpretations) a…

https://coveredinthedustoftherabbi.wordpress.com/about/bet-sefer/

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 08:00

I always look at what was in Mark - Matthew and Luke were just embellishments of Mark. John went a totally different and more esoteric path.

@Kdtym10, I thought you valued the esoteric path?

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 08:03

@Kdtym10

oh....

I see, you think an esoteric path is not for me?

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 08:19

@Kdtym10

iI would say it’s more reinforced the position many Christians can’t handle historical facts as they go against what they’ve been deceived into believing.

And this deception emanates from God? So why question it?

What have you learned from it more to the point?

@Kdtym10, that you see yourself in the role of teacher.

"26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:" (1 Corinthians 1: 26-28)

In which case I would rather be the fool. But realistically, I think we are both teachers and learners here.

Your faith that you have such complete unity with God that you feel indistinguishable from God impresses me (unless it is pride and then it would horrify me). Nevertheless, I know that God has the power to lead me, should I want this and I do, so I have to keep faith in that knowledge.

Kdtym10 · 26/01/2024 08:36

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 08:03

@Kdtym10

oh....

I see, you think an esoteric path is not for me?

Where did I say that???? You seem to have a habit of just making things up and trying to make out I’ve said something different to what I said.

Oh I do value the esoteric path. But I’ll say it again. This conversation has nothing to do with my personal path. I’m not sure why you repeatedly fail to understand the difference. What I have been discussing is the need to understand the whole culture against which the bible was written and background of the authors in order to understand what the Bible is saying.

im really not sure what your issue is but it’s clearly not of any benefit to you to carry on this conversation. It just seems to be a series of your projections which bear little resemblance to the actual conversation

Parker231 · 26/01/2024 08:44

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 08:19

@Kdtym10

iI would say it’s more reinforced the position many Christians can’t handle historical facts as they go against what they’ve been deceived into believing.

And this deception emanates from God? So why question it?

What have you learned from it more to the point?

@Kdtym10, that you see yourself in the role of teacher.

"26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:" (1 Corinthians 1: 26-28)

In which case I would rather be the fool. But realistically, I think we are both teachers and learners here.

Your faith that you have such complete unity with God that you feel indistinguishable from God impresses me (unless it is pride and then it would horrify me). Nevertheless, I know that God has the power to lead me, should I want this and I do, so I have to keep faith in that knowledge.

Why would pride horrify you? I’ve pride in many things - my family, home, educational achievements, career etc.

Kdtym10 · 26/01/2024 09:02

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 08:19

@Kdtym10

iI would say it’s more reinforced the position many Christians can’t handle historical facts as they go against what they’ve been deceived into believing.

And this deception emanates from God? So why question it?

What have you learned from it more to the point?

@Kdtym10, that you see yourself in the role of teacher.

"26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:" (1 Corinthians 1: 26-28)

In which case I would rather be the fool. But realistically, I think we are both teachers and learners here.

Your faith that you have such complete unity with God that you feel indistinguishable from God impresses me (unless it is pride and then it would horrify me). Nevertheless, I know that God has the power to lead me, should I want this and I do, so I have to keep faith in that knowledge.

“And this deception emanates from God? So why question it?”

But some emanations are so far away from God they hit the darkness and it’s often beneficial to shine the light into the darkness.

“@Kdtym10, that you see yourself in the role of teacher.” And there you go projecting again! I’m just relaying information that is readily available to anyone who looks. I’m not trying to teach anyone.

”Your faith that you have such complete unity with God that you feel indistinguishable from God impresses me (unless it is pride and then it would horrify me).” It’s not meant to have any effect on you it is what it is.

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 09:04

Where did I say that???? You seem to have a habit of just making things up and trying to make out I’ve said something different to what I said.

@Kdtym10 , you didn't, the idea just came to me. And it makes sense moving on from your idea that having The Bible printed in the vernacular is dangerous and gate keeping to 'protect the truth' is a good idea. You were pointing towards reading Mark over John because you said John was more esoteric.

What I have been discussing is the need to understand the whole culture against which the bible was written and background of the authors in order to understand what the Bible is saying.

Which I have repeatedly stressed I see the merit in. However, as I also have been repeatedly stressing I also see the merit in receiving revelation through other means/religious experiences (which you yourself acknowledge the value of too) so the scholarly study of historical context does not trump this. I also think that one type of revelation can inform the other - they work in partnership as you have alluded to as well.

'Stressing' is an interesting term. Opposite to being at peace. Quite ironic really. It seems like we are 'violently agreeing' in some ways.

We both see the value in scholarship. We both see the value in alternative revelation through other means. You describe yourself as emanationist so then all emanates from God. So indeed why are we apparently disagreeing?

This conversation has nothing to do with my personal path.

But you said upthread you are 'emanationist'. If so, surely this conversation emanates from God, as do I, so is very much to do with your path, as am I and my understanding.

Why would pride horrify you? I’ve pride in many things - my family, home, educational achievements, career etc.

Taken from the position you are in such complete unity with God you are indistinguishable from God it wouldn't. The question is are you? I am unsure that everyone is in complete unity all the time, I believe in free will. As such I give myself to God, as His subject and I believe it is through His grace I achieve well.

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 09:08

But some emanations are so far away from God they hit the darkness and it’s often beneficial to shine the light into the darkness.

@Kdtym10

And how do you ensure you are in the light instead of darkness? That you are genuinely seeking God and not moving off away into the dark?

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 09:11

Stressing...maybe I need to relax. Off for a run. 🙂

Kdtym10 · 26/01/2024 09:36

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 09:04

Where did I say that???? You seem to have a habit of just making things up and trying to make out I’ve said something different to what I said.

@Kdtym10 , you didn't, the idea just came to me. And it makes sense moving on from your idea that having The Bible printed in the vernacular is dangerous and gate keeping to 'protect the truth' is a good idea. You were pointing towards reading Mark over John because you said John was more esoteric.

What I have been discussing is the need to understand the whole culture against which the bible was written and background of the authors in order to understand what the Bible is saying.

Which I have repeatedly stressed I see the merit in. However, as I also have been repeatedly stressing I also see the merit in receiving revelation through other means/religious experiences (which you yourself acknowledge the value of too) so the scholarly study of historical context does not trump this. I also think that one type of revelation can inform the other - they work in partnership as you have alluded to as well.

'Stressing' is an interesting term. Opposite to being at peace. Quite ironic really. It seems like we are 'violently agreeing' in some ways.

We both see the value in scholarship. We both see the value in alternative revelation through other means. You describe yourself as emanationist so then all emanates from God. So indeed why are we apparently disagreeing?

This conversation has nothing to do with my personal path.

But you said upthread you are 'emanationist'. If so, surely this conversation emanates from God, as do I, so is very much to do with your path, as am I and my understanding.

Why would pride horrify you? I’ve pride in many things - my family, home, educational achievements, career etc.

Taken from the position you are in such complete unity with God you are indistinguishable from God it wouldn't. The question is are you? I am unsure that everyone is in complete unity all the time, I believe in free will. As such I give myself to God, as His subject and I believe it is through His grace I achieve well.

So basically you are making things up then trying to make out I’ve said something- as I said you’re projecting a lot here.

Well I have no idea why you’ve kept disagreeing with me, inly you can know your motives. There is nothing in what you have said here “We both see the value in scholarship. We both see the value in alternative revelation through other means.” That I have ever disagreed with - where I have been talking about the need for scholarly understanding I have repeatedly stated I’m talking about the bible. I’ve always said there are other means open to finding God if you aren’t of a scholarly persuasion. I also practice many of these ways.

How do I ensure Im the light. Well that lies for me in the hidden mysteries of the occult. But no doubt you’ll hate that but so be it. Find a different path which suits your own needs.

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 11:54

Well that lies for me in the hidden mysteries of the occult. But no doubt you’ll hate that but so be it.

@Kdtym10, well, my safe space is in Christ. And, as I'm sure you understand (as we spoke about it upthread) aspects of the occult leave me deeply uneasy. And you yourself see the need for protection.

It is this anxiety and care over people which leaves me to question. And hence I was wary initially of your insistence on certain Bible interpretations over others rather than simply accept we don't (yet) have full knowledge and that there is mystery.

But I don't wish to cast shadows on others by attempting to hog all of God's light. I rest in the hope you find Him.

Kdtym10 · 26/01/2024 13:02

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 11:54

Well that lies for me in the hidden mysteries of the occult. But no doubt you’ll hate that but so be it.

@Kdtym10, well, my safe space is in Christ. And, as I'm sure you understand (as we spoke about it upthread) aspects of the occult leave me deeply uneasy. And you yourself see the need for protection.

It is this anxiety and care over people which leaves me to question. And hence I was wary initially of your insistence on certain Bible interpretations over others rather than simply accept we don't (yet) have full knowledge and that there is mystery.

But I don't wish to cast shadows on others by attempting to hog all of God's light. I rest in the hope you find Him.

Thanks, I know exactly where god is in my world view.

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 13:05

@Kdtym10,

Thanks, I know exactly where god is in my world view.

Then I hope you come to the full knowledge of God and rest in that hope. 🙂

heyhohello · 26/01/2024 15:14

I'm kind of the opinion of Julian of Norwich who thought that hell had to exist as an option (you had to have freedom to reject God) but that it might be utterly empty.

@cunningartificer, that's a lovely thought.🙂

VincitVeritas1 · 28/01/2024 14:31

I am often concerned on these threads, when people have strong opinions regarding textual interpretations, what happens to people without the intellectual confidence. How does faith look for them? Not everyone is a theologian or cleric or university educated. Some people have learning difficulties and disabilities, how can faith look for them?

@heyhohello I agree with you, which is why it's so important to have a strong leadership team, who are correctly educated, available to offer prayer and guidance. There are a few people with learning difficulties at my church who are well cared for.

Out of curiosity OP, why did you decide mumsnet was the place to come and try and convert women to your particular - and rather extremist - brand of Christianity? It's not like you ever post on the rest of the forum, and so far nobody really seems to want to take you up on it.

@evangelion0 Sorry, but LOL to extremist and of course I post on the rest of the forum - just under different usernames! Besides, my primary aim is to educate, not convert, so it’s all good.

@Kdtym10

yes the NT was written in Greek but people also used Hebrew

But, John did specify when he used words in Hebrew, such as in Revelation 9:11, “They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).” However, he didn’t specify with 666, which was actually written in word form rather than numbers, further complicating the matter.

There were many supposed incidents of Nero reappearing in the centuries after his death just google it.

Are you suggesting that Nero has since been reincarnated? Even if that were true, no one in history, to the present day, has fulfilled everything that the actual Antichrist will do.

What other methods are you suggesting re calculating/reckoning the number of the beast.

In saying ‘calculate’, I believe John may have simply meant ‘work out’.

No one is cast into the lake of fire until the end.

Exactly, and the end will come when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist and his followers.

well if time doesn’t exist for God, that would indicate a world in which the second coming is already here as there is no past present or future, so why are we not experiencing everything in revelation permanently?

Time clearly still exists for us on this earthly plain. We are not God(s).

so why barcodes? They’re a fairly recent invention. Are you suggesting the end of the world is nigh? Has it already happened?

No, the use of barcodes was only one suggestion. I personally believe we are very close to the end, but a few more things have to happen first, such as the construction of a third temple in Jerusalem (which is all set to go btw).
How could it have already happened?

im not sure Jesus being “just a man” is contrary to the bible?

There are many passages from the Bible I could quote as examples, but I’m guessing you would have a very different perspective on them.

I think the main message of the bible is we should all aim to be Christ.

That is definitely one of them, but we should also remember that it is not possible to reach perfection in this life.

There is nothing in the bible that excludes reincarnation- I think Mark (short version) gives some indication.

Could you please quote which verses in Mark you’re referring to?

what is paradise Jesus talks of? A state of being or a place?

I would argue it is a place. If it was a state of being, how would the criminal next to Jesus experience this since he was about to die?

@heyhohello
So why insist Nero was the Antichrist or that the events in Revelation will happen soon in a particular way or anything else? Or why insist that people need to study the many many religious and non religious texts contemporary to the early Christians in order to gain full understanding?

Like I said before, none of this is particularly necessary to understand. I find the topic of eschatology really interesting and I also enjoy a discussion with others who have a very different view to my own.

Having said that, it is necessary to have some idea of what will happen in the ‘last days' and to watch for the signs, so that you won’t be deceived. As Jesus said when the disciples asked Him, "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

“Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.* Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! *Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equalled again.
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather." Matthew 24:4-28.

@Kdtym10
Now I agree that there are many ways to the Divine, whatever suits the individual, if it’s a different holy book, good works, sacrificing a goat, offering up prayers with incense - the list goes on, find whats right for you.

Again, this is quite clearly contrary to what is taught in the Scriptures.

I look at it like reading Blake...

We may as well be taking spiritual guidance from Tolkien, J. K. Rowling or Keats. If we aren’t following the Bible in these matters, what’s to say Chris de Burgh’s version of the Christmas story isn’t just as valid?! I think C. S. Lewis had some wonderful ideas, but I would never put them on a par with what's written in the Bible.

OP posts:
Thegreatestoftheseislove · 28/01/2024 18:51

Parker231 · 25/01/2024 23:48

Sins don’t exist - it’s a threat that religion holds over people - similar threat as to you’ll go to hell

The topic is according to the Bible and Christianity in general. It is not about a secular, unbelieving world - so sin DOES exist, and of course you are free to be sinful or to endeavour not to be sinful. If you are 100% certain that there is neither good nor evil, nor heaven nor hell, then you have no need at all to be concerned about the Bible or anyone's else's belief.

God instructs us of what is sinful: not as a 'threat' but as fair warning over things that He knows will harm us. 1 Corinthians 6, 9-10; Proverbs 6, 16-19; Galatians 5, 19-21.

heyhohello · 28/01/2024 18:59

Having said that, it is necessary to have some idea of what will happen in the ‘last days' and to watch for the signs, so that you won’t be deceived. As Jesus said when the disciples asked Him, "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

@VincitVeritas1, my position is that you should watch out so you are not deceived regarding of the how and when of the book of Revelation. Who wants to be decieved at any time? I have read many different interpretations of Revelation and they all can have merit, I just think the themes within it are timeless.

heyhohello · 28/01/2024 19:00

Regardless not regarding!

Parker231 · 28/01/2024 19:01

Thegreatestoftheseislove · 28/01/2024 18:51

The topic is according to the Bible and Christianity in general. It is not about a secular, unbelieving world - so sin DOES exist, and of course you are free to be sinful or to endeavour not to be sinful. If you are 100% certain that there is neither good nor evil, nor heaven nor hell, then you have no need at all to be concerned about the Bible or anyone's else's belief.

God instructs us of what is sinful: not as a 'threat' but as fair warning over things that He knows will harm us. 1 Corinthians 6, 9-10; Proverbs 6, 16-19; Galatians 5, 19-21.

What actions/activities do you think are sinful?

pointythings · 28/01/2024 19:03

@Parker231 it's somehow always to do with sex, isn't it?

Kdtym10 · 28/01/2024 19:30

VincitVeritas1 · 28/01/2024 14:31

I am often concerned on these threads, when people have strong opinions regarding textual interpretations, what happens to people without the intellectual confidence. How does faith look for them? Not everyone is a theologian or cleric or university educated. Some people have learning difficulties and disabilities, how can faith look for them?

@heyhohello I agree with you, which is why it's so important to have a strong leadership team, who are correctly educated, available to offer prayer and guidance. There are a few people with learning difficulties at my church who are well cared for.

Out of curiosity OP, why did you decide mumsnet was the place to come and try and convert women to your particular - and rather extremist - brand of Christianity? It's not like you ever post on the rest of the forum, and so far nobody really seems to want to take you up on it.

@evangelion0 Sorry, but LOL to extremist and of course I post on the rest of the forum - just under different usernames! Besides, my primary aim is to educate, not convert, so it’s all good.

@Kdtym10

yes the NT was written in Greek but people also used Hebrew

But, John did specify when he used words in Hebrew, such as in Revelation 9:11, “They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).” However, he didn’t specify with 666, which was actually written in word form rather than numbers, further complicating the matter.

There were many supposed incidents of Nero reappearing in the centuries after his death just google it.

Are you suggesting that Nero has since been reincarnated? Even if that were true, no one in history, to the present day, has fulfilled everything that the actual Antichrist will do.

What other methods are you suggesting re calculating/reckoning the number of the beast.

In saying ‘calculate’, I believe John may have simply meant ‘work out’.

No one is cast into the lake of fire until the end.

Exactly, and the end will come when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist and his followers.

well if time doesn’t exist for God, that would indicate a world in which the second coming is already here as there is no past present or future, so why are we not experiencing everything in revelation permanently?

Time clearly still exists for us on this earthly plain. We are not God(s).

so why barcodes? They’re a fairly recent invention. Are you suggesting the end of the world is nigh? Has it already happened?

No, the use of barcodes was only one suggestion. I personally believe we are very close to the end, but a few more things have to happen first, such as the construction of a third temple in Jerusalem (which is all set to go btw).
How could it have already happened?

im not sure Jesus being “just a man” is contrary to the bible?

There are many passages from the Bible I could quote as examples, but I’m guessing you would have a very different perspective on them.

I think the main message of the bible is we should all aim to be Christ.

That is definitely one of them, but we should also remember that it is not possible to reach perfection in this life.

There is nothing in the bible that excludes reincarnation- I think Mark (short version) gives some indication.

Could you please quote which verses in Mark you’re referring to?

what is paradise Jesus talks of? A state of being or a place?

I would argue it is a place. If it was a state of being, how would the criminal next to Jesus experience this since he was about to die?

@heyhohello
So why insist Nero was the Antichrist or that the events in Revelation will happen soon in a particular way or anything else? Or why insist that people need to study the many many religious and non religious texts contemporary to the early Christians in order to gain full understanding?

Like I said before, none of this is particularly necessary to understand. I find the topic of eschatology really interesting and I also enjoy a discussion with others who have a very different view to my own.

Having said that, it is necessary to have some idea of what will happen in the ‘last days' and to watch for the signs, so that you won’t be deceived. As Jesus said when the disciples asked Him, "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

“Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house.* Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! *Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now - and never to be equalled again.
“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you ahead of time.
“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather." Matthew 24:4-28.

@Kdtym10
Now I agree that there are many ways to the Divine, whatever suits the individual, if it’s a different holy book, good works, sacrificing a goat, offering up prayers with incense - the list goes on, find whats right for you.

Again, this is quite clearly contrary to what is taught in the Scriptures.

I look at it like reading Blake...

We may as well be taking spiritual guidance from Tolkien, J. K. Rowling or Keats. If we aren’t following the Bible in these matters, what’s to say Chris de Burgh’s version of the Christmas story isn’t just as valid?! I think C. S. Lewis had some wonderful ideas, but I would never put them on a par with what's written in the Bible.

You might think it’s necessary to have a “strong leadership team” I think this is very dangerous. It sounds like they don’t take kindly to being questioned.

John did specify to use Gematria - a code that one needs to have understanding of, to calculate and to reckon means to add up. Again indicating Gematria. It happens that Nero fits the two numbers we have in revelations about the beast - 666 and the earlier 616. Again most scholars think this is as near. Inclusive evidence of John meaning Nero as we can get. - what do you think it means? Why not Nero?

Actually “ye are Gods”

Interesting that you think it’s preordained Jesus will beat the Anti christ - why bother with the whole farce then?

So are you anticipating tge 12 tribes of Israel will be reunited if the third Jerusalem is “ all set to go” - people have been predicting the end of the world is nigh for millennia. Da Vinci was esp sure of the fact the world would end in his life time for example. I’m sure it’s around 60% of Americans think Armageddon will happen in their lifetime. Apparently this predisposition is linked with ego and the inability to think the world could possibly continue without you.

Time doesn’t really exist.

quote me the passages you’re talking about re Jesus being more than a man

Re Mark the short (most think original ending) as a man telling Mary Jesus said he will go ahead and see his disciples once again in Galilee. Then it ends. Of course if you then reRead Mark which begins with God identifying Jesus status at his baptism (no mention of life pre 30) then meeting his disciples in Galilee. I believe this is the proper reading re cycles.

Paradise could be a stat of being back in the womb, between lives etc. it’s is not necessarily a place.

Re end of days. How do you know the Christian church is not deceiving you. Seen any angels blowing trumpets etc? Of course it’s necessary to understand the symbology in revelation if you’re looking for signs. Unless you think it is all very literal.

So what is the only way to the divine in your eyes?

you do realise that the Bible was written by men don’t you. Why do you think that the writings of 2000 plus years ago were Gods last work on the subject, has he been suffering from writers block ever since.

Chris de Burghs words are probably just as valid as Luke’s. Neither were there. Why didn’t mark write about the Nativity rather than starting at Jesus baptism?

why can’t the poet be speaking Gods words. Who are you to decide who is speaking Gods truth, but arrogant to be stating who God may or may not work through.

Kdtym10 · 28/01/2024 19:35

@VincitVeritas1 oh and re Nero- you might find This interesting about the legends that Nero would return and it’s most likely that this is what John was envisaging. It doesn’t matter whether it actually happened or not or what happened at the times people claimed it had happened. What matters is that John was anticipating this when he was writing.

Most religions have their own eschatology- why out of all the others is the Christian one correct. Sounds pretty arrogant to me.

Nero Redivivus legend - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero_Redivivus_legend

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