Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

You might find this interesting as to whether or not Jesus was a carpenter

“What Did ‘Carpenter’ Mean in Ancient Jerusalem?When we read the Bible, it can be easy to fall into the trap of forgetting that the scriptures were originally written in languages that have all but been lost to time. The English versions are essentially translations of translations, and in certain cases translators may have chosen words that were subtly different from the words in the original manuscripts. On top of that, even among English versions, there is archaic terminology that carried with it different connotations at the time the work was translated. This can make it difficult to pin down the exact meaning of certain terms. Many biblical scholars believe that this is the case with ‘carpentry.’
Today, a carpenter is someone who works with wood. But did the original term in Ancient Greek (the language that the Gospels were first written in) mean the same thing? There is evidence to suggest that the scriptures originally identified Jesus and Joseph as being of the ‘tektōn’ profession, meaning they were craftsmen or builders. This doesn’t preclude them from working with wood, but it does open up other possibilities as well.
Although wood was certainly available in ancient Jerusalem, most structures of that era were constructed primarily of stone. If we take ‘carpenter’ to mean ‘builder,’ it is conceivable that Jesus would have needed to understand masonry techniques in addition to knowing how to shape wood. For Jesus, carpenter work may have been more about working with limestone rather than timber. And, if we expand the definition further to include all-purpose craftsmen, then we may be looking at an occupation that is similar to a modern handyman, skilled in a variety of building and repair work.
Finally, it’s worth recognizing that the language spoken by Jesus and his disciples was probably Aramaic. The term carpenter may correspond with the Aramaic word ‘naggar,’ meaning ‘a learned man.’ If so, this casts a different light on Jesus' educational upbringing. That said, it may be difficult to rationalize this interpretation with the incredulous response of Jesus’ audience when they used his status as a ‘carpenter’ as an insult.”

Who says the Catholic Church has understanding of the Bible? Why would it need an organised religion to gate keep??

@Kdtym10, my point is that they did gate keep! Suppressing translations of the Bible into the vernacular, withholding Sacraments, excommunicating people, the inquisition. I thought it was rather obvious I am against this type of gate keeping.

And my mother and father marrying was going against my mother's (Roman Catholic) church which means that I wouldn't exist if the gate keeping of the time by her church bothered her.

So I am wary of gate keeping which you were making an argument for.

As such I am wary of aggressively arguing 'correct' interpretation. Discussion, great. Studying ancient languages and translations, great.
But that doesn't and will never trump God. Who I believe can reach people regardless. So we shouldn't be overly dismissive of anyone or worship anyone individual (& their interpretations) above God.

"9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:9-11)

And funnily enough my Grandfather was a Roman Catholic convert. Converted after the war where he had a very strange and frightening supernatural experience in the company of some Bedouins. His C of E church couldn't/ wouldn't help him. But the Roman Catholic Church at the time welcomed him with open arms. I can also see there is much good in this church denomination as well as the aforementioned darker side.

Later on my Grandad studied theology. Also had a fondness for the Greek Orthodox Church. He was great.

But what I’m saying is they did hate keep but for the wing reasons. Their gate keeping was based on retaining power rather than protecting any truth.

I never argued for any sectarianism so I’m still not sure of the relevance of your parents marriage.

I think you keep arguing the same point, I’ve never said that the Bible is the only way to God. But the bible was a product of its time and authorship. You need to understand these things before you read the Bible.

Let’s take the phrase, it’s easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven. This is usually interpreted by Christian’s as in order for a camel to go through the hlgate referred to as the eye of a needle it needs to take off its pack and crawl through on its knees, ie a rich man needs to become humble to get into heaven.

However this gate didn’t exist in Jesus’s time. An alternative is that it was a play on words - gimmel being the 3rd letter of the Hebrew alphabet also meaning camel also meaning rope. So it was saying it’s easier for a rope to pass through tge (actual eye of and actual needle, ie impossible (although this was also unlikely as it was not really a contemporary name for rope). The third most likely explanation was that it was borrowed from a Mesopotamian saying - it’s easier for sn elephant to go through the eye of a needle - again meaning absolutely impossible. - but it didn’t suit the church (desperate for rich sponsors) to say you’re rich, you’re not on the list. Knowing what the Bible says is important.

interesting you quote Romans - Paul always wrote to the learned men in society. Why was that?

yes the Catholic Church are much more open to the existence of the supernatural and for centuries magic and the then Church existed side by side. I also have quite a bit of time for those that were East in the great schism.

@Kdtym10 the relevance of my parent's marriage (which I am a product of) is that it shows how hypocritical I would be if I wholeheartedly was pro gate keeping regarding people's religious and spiritual lives.

But the bible was a product of its time and authorship.

I don't disagree with this but I also think it is relevant to modern readers and also think that people who genuinely seek God develop understanding in relationship with God leading them!

"38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)

And going on from this point, people will learn at an individual pace relevant to them. We all have different backgrounds. Which I think is important to remember. Why chastise people for believing a widely held (in some circles) interpretation? Why not just question the interpretation?

And regarding the poor. Am I poor? I have no personal income but have some savings. I own property jointly with my husband. Jointly with my husband we have a middling income.

@Kdtym10 have you given up all personal wealth?

Or am I rich?

@Kdtym10

And with the educational achievement gap rooted in social deprivation and poverty what hope would the those classed as socially deprived and low income families have regarding equality of access to the type of study required to gain the academic understanding you argue is necessary for understanding the Bible?

Paul always wrote to the learned men in society. Why was that?

@Kdtym10

I expect to address what they were teaching and how they were treating others they had power/responsibility over. Paul had persecuted the early Christians before his conversion, he knew personally how knowledge and power can be abused.

@heyhohello
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." (Romans 14:9-11)

I understand that the bible want us to believe that this means that all people, whether they are believers or not , will one day acknowledge Jesus -an act of submission and worship. Will never happen!

@Kdtym10, with the rich young ruler, I think it is also impossible to remember the context of the encounter. He was claiming to be fulfilling all the 10 commandments. So not only rich and powerful but proud. Yet the suggestion of losing his wealth and power and follow Jesus was so unpalatable to him we never hear about him again. So he was unable put God first thus not fulfilling the 10 commandments.

Christians need to acknowledge their sin (being apart from God/ not in complete unity with God/ going against His will) and repent, that is genuinely seek Him. Not claim they already are perfect.

@Parker231, well, we will find that out. I'm guessing you don't want unity with God.

Why would I want unity with god - honest question?

@Kdtym10 the thing with worldly wealth and power, any type of wordly power, including academic is that other people's respect and admiration can give a person an inflated sense of their own importance.

@Parker231 I believe God is love. Are you against love and for hatred?

I love my DH, DC’s and family. How can any god = love. Doesn’t do any good deeds or help solve any problems. Sounds a throughly unpleasant character.

Doesn’t do any good deeds or help solve any problems. Sounds a throughly unpleasant character.

Not according my understanding or experience @Parker231. You can read my previous posts which elaborates on this.

@Parker231 but if you agree with love maybe when you truly encounter God you will recognise it in Him.

But it’s not gate keeping peoples spiritual lives. It’s clarifying the most likely interpretation the authors of the bible would have intended given the back ground against which it was written. You’re saying some people can’t understand that, I’m saying that, in that case they would be better finding an alternative route to God as the Bible is likely to mislead and misinterpret. Your parents marriage has no conceivable connection to this point. Suggesting accuracy in evaluating a 2000 plus year old book requires a certain level of erudition is not”gate keeping” it’s common sense.

Why do you use a capital H and G? Usually capital letters are used for titles?

Love is physical not imaginary.

@Parker231,

Why do you use a capital H and G? Usually capital letters are used for titles?

really? I think you know why.

Love is physical not imaginary.

My love is physical. I feel it physically as it manifests physically in my body. Altered brain chemicals, hormones, leading to an altered physical state. It also leads to altered physical actions and reactions . But it is spiritual in origin. It's an example of spiritual manifestation.

@Kdtym10 do you not think spiritual understanding can lead to academic understanding?

What I find interesting is that you seem to take offence at a scholarly interpretation of the bible because people should find their own way yet then insist your way is right.

Im not sure you’re actually listening to any of the answers I give you. Misinterpreting the bible has had fatal consequences for millennia. It has been used to manipulate and deceive people.

if people can’t deal with something dangerous they should use other methods. The writing of the bible was meant for learned people, it was written by learned men. Other ways to God are available. I’m really not sure what issue you have round this, it appears to be a private issue that is flying in the face of rational thought.

@Kdtym10

"14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:14-16)