Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

Thank you @Kdtym10. Yes it is.

I'm a Christian of the perennial/mystic of the traditional faith. Not mainstream Christianity, which is immature, competitive, man-made control, like the majority of modern faiths.

The core original beliefs were of the inner life, the desert fathers/mothers and mystics

The Romans came along and turned Catholism into Roman Catholism, which is man-made and about control. Then Henry VIII capitulation of it wife splitting the church for his own satisfaction and lust made Christianity into a competition.

If you really want to learn about original faith, start by looking up Fr Richard Rohr on YouTube. I've attached one below. There's many more who practice in the mystic way and believe all roads lead to the one

Jesus did not come to this earth to leave us what mainstream is today.

Fr Richard Rohr, by the way, is a Fransican monk, which is an order off the Catholic Church. Fransican is from Saint Francis (make me a channel of your peace). The other orders of Catholism are Jesuits (Pope Francis is from this order) Dominicans, etc. I am not Catholic. Never was. I don't do denominations. I do spirituality, including 12-step program.

Fr Richard, as do all those who live the traditional way teach and practice the inner life. As he says, the Bible makes no sense when taken literally.

All faiths at their original core were about the inner life.

Heaven and hell are in the now and aren't what the mainstream church make them to be.

Fortunately, I belong to a community that allows us the room to explore and find our own personal way and relationship with God (I don't understand). Incidently, God is NOT a noun. God is a verb

This link always brings me to beautiful tears

@keffie1, just watched the clip you posted. Phenomenal!

It is. I hope you bookmark him and listen to more. He will really help your faith grow up and speak to your inner life. Look for the one "Hell no" by Fr Richard, and there is a fabulous one on what people have made God into.

Fr Richard describes it as a wrathful santa claus. Making a list, checking it twice etc etc.

Oh, I could go on about my faves of his. I'll let you explore and enjoy the journey of him 🙏

@keffie12, thanks for the recommendation.

@Kdtym10 Finally found a minute to sit and reply to you, although I haven't had time to watch the videos yet. Where I put resurrection in the last post, it should have read reincarnation.

I’m basing this on the teachings of several prominent early Christians
The term Gnostic in this context had little meaning at that time, early Christianity comprised of many different groups with different doctrines.

I’m not sure which ‘prominent early Christians’ you mean but I think it’s a fruitless debate, since we obviously have a very different idea of what being a Christian means - today and back in the early days of the Church. Same with the terms Gnostic/Gnosticism and mystic.

The passage you quote has nothing to do with reincarnation.

I was using the verse from Hebrews as an example of the biblical truth, which is that humans die once and then face judgement, rather than die once and return in another body/ evolution of the soul/ rebirth. Similarly, Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross, “...today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), not “Today you will return as a butterfly” or anything else.

This passage is talking about the concept of “second death” which was a commonly held belief in the Middle East at that time. A belief that after the earthly “first death” you would then suffer a second death.

I do agree with you about the second death (which comes after judgement) but again, this in no way suggests the possibility of reincarnation.

interestingly I see the concept of a second death quite a bit in the occult world still (which is probably why I’m more aware of it)

In what way does the occult world see the concept of a second death, out of interest?

can you please expand why you think numerology is relevant in the current discussion.

I was making an assumption, based on your previous post about the measurements of the New Jerusalem and your interests around the occult - Numerology being a popular method of divining information in those circles.

Gematria takes the relevant number eg in Hebrew Aleph is 1, Beth 2 etc for each letter and add them up. Doing this to Nero Caeser will give you 666 or 616 depending on what language is used.

I have heard that theory, which is a relatively modern one. Nero is not the only name that can be made using Gematria. It is far from being an exact science - I could most probably make mine fit too! It’s also only one explanation, among many many others and not a very convincing one, for these main reasons:

The book of Revelation was written in Greek, not Hebrew and Nero’s name only adds up to 666 in the Hebrew alphabet.

The likely date that Revelation was written came some 28 years after Nero’s death. If John had been warning the early Christians about Nero, he was a little late!

The identity of the Antichrist will be revealed/ made known at some point. Nero did not do the things that Revelation lays out that the Antichrist will do, i.e.:

Die and come back to life

Oppose and exalt himself above every god and proclaim to be God in the temple of God (in Jerusalem)

Reign over Israel for exactly 42 months

Rule and be worshipped by the entire world

Be accompanied by someone who performs miracles, signs and wonders and sets up an image of the Antichrist which they will give “life” to.

Force everyone (globally) to take a mark, without which buying an selling anything will be impossible

Order anyone who refuses to take this mark, to be killed by beheading.

Gather with other world leaders to wage war against God all who oppose his regime.

Finally, Nero died by suicide. He was not cast into the Lake of Fire by Jesus, which is how the Antichrist will meet his end.

Are you seriously suggesting a text of nearly 2000 years of age was contemplating barcodes????

Since I believe the Bible to be the ‘word of God’ and is ultimately God speaking through His earthly prophets, I see no reason why it shouldn’t point to a future technology, not understood by the original authors. As we see in the book of Isaiah particularly, the Bible is full of references to future events and prophecies. This is particularly true of Revelation, the majority of which concerns the circumstances surrounding Jesus’ second coming. For God, time as we know it effectively doesn’t exists.

This is literally doing exactly what it tells you to in Revelation.

John does not specify the use of Gematria. There are many other methods of calculation and there are no instructions as to the formula.

The covid vaccines didn’t carry a microchip.

I never suggested they did.

Yes that John, as we discussing Revelation I thought it was obvious we were discussing the John who had the er Revelation.

In fairness, there are a lot of Johns!

Jesus was a man. Christ is a way of being, a title separate from the man. It’s a way of being/title anyone can reach.

While I agree that ‘Christ’ is one of the titles given to Jesus, meaning ‘anointed one’ (not a surname!) I whole heartedly disagree that He was just a man. This is patently unbiblical and contrary to Scripture.

Out of curiosity OP, why did you decide mumsnet was the place to come and try and convert women to your particular - and rather extremist - brand of Christianity? It's not like you ever post on the rest of the forum, and so far nobody really seems to want to take you up on it.

“’m not sure which ‘prominent early Christians’ you mean but I think it’s a fruitless debate, since we obviously have a very different idea of what being a Christian means - today and back in the early days of the Church. Same with the terms Gnostic/Gnosticism and mystic.” So how would you define those terms?

re Gematria -yes the NT was written in Greek but people also used Hebrew (being the language of the OT and Latin being the language of the Empire. The two versions we have -666 and 616 bothe represent Nero in Hebrew and Latin. I think as I explained Nero was supposed to reappear so it was the once and future king - it’s a common trope King Arthur, Jesus. It’s present(or near past and future. There were many supposed incidents of Nero reappearing in the centuries after his death just google it.

Do you use Gematria? I know people who write books on it, once you have established a system it is well systematic. What other methods are you suggesting re calculating/reckoning the number of the beast.

No one is cast into the lake of fire until the end.

well if time doesn’t exist for God, that would indicate a world in which the second coming is already here as there is no past present or future, so why are we not experiencing everything in revelation permanently? I absolutely subscribe to the non linear nature of time. But I’m not sure how your argument is hanging together here?

so why barcodes? They’re a fairly recent invention. Are you suggesting the end of the world is nigh? Has it already happened?

yes there are a lot of johns - not many linked to Revelation.

im not sure Jesus being “just a man” is contrary to the bible? Maybe that perspective short changes what man is? I think the main message of the bible is we should all aim to be Christ.

There is nothing in the bible that excludes reincarnation- I think Mark (short version) gives some indication.

what is paradise Jesus talks of? A state of being or a place?

I was using the verse from Hebrews as an example of the biblical truth, which is that humans die once and then face judgement, rather than die once and return in another body/ evolution of the soul/ rebirth. Similarly, Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross, “...today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43), not “Today you will return as a butterfly” or anything else.

@VincitVeritas1 - when you quote biblical truth - this is only your interpretation- it’s not actual fact or truth.

There's no such thing as 'biblical truth'.

@Kdtym10, @VincitVeritas1
what I don't understand is, that if Gnosticism emphasises the importance of individual spiritual knowledge, why then argue over the (perceived) truth in various interpretations?

So why insist Nero was the Antichrist or that the events in Revelation will happen soon in a particular way or anything else? Or why insist that people need to study the many many religious and non religious texts contemporary to the early Christians in order to gain full understanding?

Personally, I can see much value in such pursuits but none are exclusively the best way. I believe in faith that God can reach us, if we genuinely seek Him through whichever means are best for us as individuals. Some people are better suited to study and some people can be very practical and find God in their everyday human activities, caring for others, for example. Some have more mystical experiences and find God in that way. And for many of us it is a combination of many different experiences.

Sorry, I’m not sure I get your point re Gnosticism?

Yes there is an inner spiritual journey to be undertaken. But when you are relying on external sources such as the Bible as a map for that journey it’s important you understand the key, otherwise how are you going to read the map?

Now I agree that there are many ways to the Divine, whatever suits the individual, if it’s a different holy book, good works, sacrificing a goat, offering up prayers with incense - the list goes on, find whats right for you.

But if you want to use the Bible, you need to understand it, you need to understand who wrote it, the background of these writers, the contemporary culture , the history. Otherwise it’s likely that any understanding might be inaccurate and or miss important points.

I look at it like reading Blake. When I first started reading his works I was WTAF? But the beauty of his words had an affect on me, as I got to know his characters I got more from his prophetic works, as I understood the people he referred to I understood what he was saying more. As I developed a deep understanding of the alchemical world view, real lightbulbs started to go off. As I read Dante,Milton Boehme I got further into Blake’s mind. As I saw his illustrations his cosmology came to full fruition in my mind.

To understand something fully requires work, it requires curiosity, it requires dedication and it requires honesty.

now, of course I could have continued read Blake thinking Oh they are beautiful words. But I would never have understood what he was trying to say. To paraphrase Atticus Finch to truly understand someone you need to put on their shoes and walk around in their world.

@Kdtym10, from what I understand Gnosticism values personal spiritual revelation, the 'inner spiritual' journey as you describe it. Protestantism arose out of an inner spiritual revelation too.

Knowledge also develops. With as many individual journeys as there are people in getting to know God and understand The Bible how can anyone hold themselves up as more than authoritative than someone else?

So how can anyone be prescriptive regarding how that journey of understanding might occur?

I like to think learning and study can happen more organically and intuitively. If we are talking about God/The Divine being then He can communicate with us in just the same ways as He communicated to people in times gone by.

Not that I don't think it's interesting looking at the beginnings of Christianity. However, to suggest in order to know God better everyone needs to actually pretty much read libraries and libraries of books is a bit elitist, even though I personally love reading and have read pretty extensively, I wouldn't say this is absolutely required in order to know God better. Sometimes, for example, people can have a divine experience praying the most simplistic of prayers such as the Orthodox Christians with The Jesus Prayer.

And who can say they have complete understanding of The Bible in its entirety? Which is my point really. There is as much mystery in The Bible as there is regarding God. So why argue?

"There is as much mystery in The Bible as there is regarding God" & I say this because The Bible reflects God. However, it does feel I haven't communicated this quite correctly as I believe God has supremacy.

@Kdtym10, I am wondering also how you view God's grace working in people. You seem to empathise hard work.

"To understand something fully requires work, it requires curiosity, it requires dedication and it requires honesty."

However, I don't believe we can 'buy' our way close to God with work - in this case dedicated study. Too transactional.

Although I know grace often leads to work/particular actions, this work and particular actions can be undertaken apart from God's grace. Seeking understanding through study can just as easily be an egotistical pursuit. A quest in search for a collection of texts that align with one's ego, currently held views rather than accepting anything more challenging may be (also be) true.

emphasise

Gnostics still had a cosmology, a sacrament, rules etc- I just don’t get what point you’re trying to make. What do you think the agnostics were? That might clear things up,

I agree in part, as I said, there are many ways to the divine. I don’t think I’ve said anywhere that the only way is through deep study. But I caveat that with the position that if you’re going to use the bible you need to fully understand it. The bible way written by learned men largely for learned men, esp the OT and actually much of the NT which was written in the language of learning - Greek. It was written for “those who have understanding”. In many ways it was esoteric in the widest definition.

Of course anyone can read it and take something from it, get a quote (and usually a quote to counter it).

is it possible to get a connection to the Divine without going anywhere near the bible? I would say yes. It’s a book written by men, largely about men.

But the bible is a very dangerous book in the wrong hands as has been proven time and time again throughout history it needs handling like a hand grenade.

We know probably more about the bible than any other historical text, (and I use this phrase to mean a text from history)does that mean we know everything? No. But we know a lot. We shouldn’t just ignore the points we are fairly confident of through fear it counters what we want or because someone finds it “elitist”

The bible has been used for millennia to manipulate and justify genocide. I think it’s the responsible thing to learn as much as you can about it and the people who use it if you’re going to be exposed to it.

msybe concentrate on raising people up to this level rather than pulling people down. Of course people living in ignorance has always been a preferred state for organised religion.

@Kdtym10 as I have said, I don't disagree with study or the encouragement of study. However, to put one person up over another because they are well read is elitist which I am against. This is as bad as witholding texts or other religious experiences from people or refusing to allow texts in the vernacular because a translation 'wouldn't do a text justice'.

But the bible is a very dangerous book in the wrong hands as has been proven time and time again throughout history it needs handling like a hand grenade.

@Kdtym10, so who should be the gatekeeper?

Otherwise why didn't Jesus come amongst us as a scribe? Rather than a carpenter? Why did He bother with the fishermen and publicans and the tax collectors? Why at His birth did the angels appear to the shepherds? What did He do, take them all to the scribes? To study texts? Or speak of common day experiences?

I’m talking about the bible not necessarily about what Jesus might have done. I’m not saying divinity should be kept for the few, I’m saying the bible was written for learned men - not the average person in the street. This people would have had an understanding of concepts that the average person in the street 2000 years later wouldn’t understand. IMO the bible should have been kept for those who had an understanding. Unfortunately the printing press put paid to that.

Did the angels appear to the shepherds at his birth? Why wasn’t it mentioned in Mark which many scholars consider the first to be written? Their God only announces him as his son when he is baptised.

who should be the gate keeper? Well that’s a difficult one. Maybe people need to take responsibility for themselves and actually think logically about what they’re reading and do their research. If they’re not prepared to do that then they need to consider very carefully how they use it.

there’s a lot to be said for initiatory orders

IMO the bible should have been kept for those who had an understanding. Unfortunately the printing press put paid to that.

@Kdtym10, wow! Rather like the old traditional conservative Roman Catholic view. Everything in Latin. Never thought you'd align with that train of thought.

who should be the gate keeper? Well that’s a difficult one. Maybe people need to take responsibility for themselves and actually think logically about what they’re reading and do their research. If they’re not prepared to do that then they need to consider very carefully how they use it.

there’s a lot to be said for initiatory orders

Difficult indeed! Needless to say there's no actual official (man made) religious organisation or institution gatekeeping me personally. I'm happy with that. I don't know where I'd be if there was. Or if I'd exist as my Roman Catholic mother went against her church and married my C of E father.

@Kdtym10

Do you follow the same ascetic rules as many of the gnostics?

Why would I follow Gnostic asceticism? (As much as there is such a thing- Gnosticism is an anachronistic term)

Who says the Catholic Church has understanding of the Bible? Why would it need an organised religion to gate keep??

As I said, people should gate keep themselves. Not sure what that has to do with your mum and dad meeting?