Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

@VincitVeritas1This paper might help explain the Paul/Jewish mysticism thought

or video.

More generally on if you’re interested

Theres so many different interpretations and layers of interpretation regarding the book of Revelation. It seems to highlight divisions amongst the Christian church denominations.

I myself come from a mixed marriage and added to this, my mother has dabbled with witchcraft and new age philosophy, my father with atheism during different periods in their lives. Just to illustrate there's opportunity for much confusion and anxiety. So how to reconcile all this?

"2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments." (Colossians 2:2-4 NIV)

"13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." (John 16:13 NIV)

So I figured the best place to be is with Christ. And it is to this end I pray The Unity Prayer, (novenaprayer.com/2022/08/02/the-unity-prayer/)

My adorable Jesus,
May our feet journey together.
May our hands gather in unity.
May our hearts beat in unison.
May our souls be in harmony.
May our thoughts be as one.
May our ears listen to the silence together.
May our glances profoundly penetrate each other.
May our lips pray together to gain mercy from the Eternal Father.
And I believe this is God's will.

Otherwise what hope is there? If we relied purely on intellect and scholarly works it would make us subject to the most eloquent and intellectual speakers. If we lacked the intellect ourselves to understand we would be lost...

Just realised it looks like 'and I believe this is God's will' is part of that particular prayer. That was simply my own statement of belief.

But I’m afraid if you want to study something and understand it it does rely on intellect, scholarly papers shed light on the background against which it was written.

The position, oh let’s ignore intellectual discussion, let’s just rely on what others tell us is the position which has seen people divided from God. Not understanding something intellectually means you’re not understanding something you’re reading. This argument has been repeatedly used when it’s pointed out what the actual factual position is. Why is that? Does it suit religion to have unquestioning followers I wonder???? It’s almost like established religion doesn’t like to be challenged- although at least generally in the west were at a position when we’re not going to get burned at the stake by the loving Christian fanatics.

The question is why would you be subject to anyone else in your faith? Why not equip yourself with All the information and work it out yourself. In that the best place to start is by looking at who wrote these books, why and what was contemporary thought. Otherwise it’s just blind faith - Jesus was all for making people see!

What do you mean - what hope is there? You don’t need any religious beliefs to have a good life.

@Kdtym10 and that's why I said 'if we relied purely on intellect.' Obviously intellect is involved in understanding. However, we cannot ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit, Faith, deep seated convictions which sometimes cannot even be easily vocalised and a whole host of other religious experiences.

I am often concerned on these threads, when people have strong opinions regarding textual interpretations, what happens to people without the intellectual confidence. How does faith look for them? Not everyone is a theologian or cleric or university educated. Some people have learning difficulties and disabilities, how can faith look for them?

"38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[a] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)

So if God loves us all, He can reach us if we want this.

@Parker231, I'm speaking from personal experience. I would find hope difficult without God.

That’s so sad - hope you are ok

I guess I’m also concerned about the same people. The people who haven’t been allowed to think differently from the (imo often flawed) orthodox view (for much of history, and still currently in certain circumstances, under pain of torture and death) or are not allowed access to either the scripture or are not made aware of the many interpretations. Even more worrying is the potential for harm for people who haven’t got the intellectual capacity to understand the scriptures fully by agenda fuelled rather than fact driven analysis and ideas.

This is where you get idiots like that chap on the YouTube video basically saying you’re all going to hell. Religion has often taken advantage of these people. It has been about bringing everyone down rather than raising up, if you’re worried about such people, it’s the twisted exploitation of the church you need to be looking at, not those who question. But religion has never been too keen on people questioning.

My message to anyone not capable of independently interpreting the bible is probably to think what it means to them but realise that’s a personal interpretation and might not be what was meant by the person writing it. Great if it gives you something personally. In that way the Bible is effectively, like say tarot cards, triggering you to connect to something else. This is valuable. If that’s all you get out of it, it’s better than nothing, to some it might be everything. And that can be beautiful in itself. But for heavens sake no one should blindly follow religion. It’s agenda driven and often not for the good of its flock.

But as soon as you try and tell others what something means, you need to be able to justify it in some way, that is where the intellect and scholarship comes in. Eg if someone tells me a particular passage in the bible says it pours cold water all over the idea of reincarnation and I know that is blatantly untrue because it’s talking about a particular concept popular in the time the bible was written what do you want me to do?

At the end of the day we are looking for truth and that includes spiritual and corporeal truth. As within so without.

@Kdtym10 - neither heaven or hell exist - they are just used as a way of trying to make people follow an imaginary god with powers to punish and control you for non compliance .

@Parker231 thank you, you are kind to be concerned. It's brightened my day! 🙂 But, yes, I'm happy. Conflict, such as on here, does sadden me sometimes though.

@Parker231 also I've overcome a lot of difficulties in my life. Against the odds, statistically. Which I'm thankful to God for. I'm nothing special in and of myself.

I am often concerned on these threads, when people have strong opinions regarding textual interpretations, what happens to people without the intellectual confidence. How does faith look for them? Not everyone is a theologian or cleric or university educated. Some people have learning difficulties and disabilities, how can faith look for them?

I share @Kdtym10 's concern, which is essentially yours but flipped on its head - people who have not had the opportunity to develop intellectually, or who do not have the ability to do so because of a learning difficulty, are easily manipulated by all manner of people - including those who are recruiting for a religion. The more fundamentalist branches of faith are particularly guilty of this kind of behaviour and it isn't acceptable.

I've never had anyone come knocking at my door 'selling' the benefits of atheism. Christians on the other hand do this regularly. Who is protecting vulnerable people from this sort of thing?

Oh I think they both exist, right here on earth. Have you ever read Blake’s marriage of Heaven and Hell. There’s a great part regarding how religion tries to make you see hell and your own damnation

I’ve been to many places of worship and I’ve seen many times the vulnerable are seen as easy prey, as usual often under the guise of love and inclusion (although for years these same places were less welcoming and inclusive and full of loving kindness to those who were gay or who got pregnant outside marriage).

Of course the most vulnerable are children

Life as an atheist is much more straightforward - neither heaven or hell exist. Fact.

So you've contorted belief into trust - and without even any reference to problematic translation issues. The idea that the god of the earth and heavens has devised a salvation system based on what we belief (which is something discovered, not decided) is utterly absurd. It mostly arises from Paul's dispute with those that thought gentiles could be circumcised at any age to become saved Jews. He preached that that was neither possible nor necesssary. His whole shtick was that only believing in the death & resurrection of the christ leading to atonement mattered. He never really bothered with the teachings of Jesus, hardly mentioning them at all. Christianity would've been better off without him.

Otherwise what hope is there?

Hope for what exactly?

Hope for a happy and fulfilling life?

I've overcome a lot of difficulties in my life. Against the odds, statistically. Which I'm thankful to God for.

By why are you thankful for a 'god'??

You may have overcome these difficulties regardless? Or you may have never encountered these difficulties without a god? Who's to say that god improved rather than hurt your life?

I have also overcome a lot of difficulties, as has my disabled DS.

No god required.

But we can’t saying it’s a fact. I would think the chance of heaven and hell existing as envisaged by standard Christian thought is vanishingly small given the number of variations of the after life which have existed over time and space.

Unless you’re god😀

For those of you who believe in god, have you ever considered that he may actually not help people? That he might cause suffering, famine and wars? And diseases like cancer?

Personally I do not believe in such a god, but I'm intrigued that those of you who believe in god always assume he does god and improves your life, and you never even consider that he may cause harm?