Will you make it to Heaven? Cont.

[VincitVeritas1]

Feel free to join me in a discussion about Heaven according to the Holy Bible/ Christianity in general.

Exactly, @Parker231 and @BrutChoronzon - the truth isn't the truth because OP says it is. Saying something doesn't make it true.

Love the Housemartins!

@Parker231, me too. 🙂

Great song @heyhohello thanks for your positive contribution!

You're welcome, @VincitVeritas1.

It’s interesting as vocalist Paul Heaton is an atheist and The Housemartins' lyrics always contained elements of a skewed Christianity in their world view with political undertones.

@Parker231 the song wasn't written by The Housemartins. It was written and performed by Isley Jasper Isley.

Originally.

I just like The Housemartins version. 😁

Original version.

Oh i couldn’t keep watching that utter tripe. This guy has absolutely zero understanding of the book of Revelation. It is about God helping the Jews overthrow the Romans - since the Messiah had failed first time he was going to come again. This time the Messiahs work will be completed.

it’s very obvious that the chap hasn’t a clue when he mentions the New Jerusalem will be 1400 miles long, wide and square - no it’s 12000 cubits. 12, the bringing together all the lost tribes of Israel, the product of 3 (the number of renewal and 4 the number of earth) it has 12 columns to of different stones again to signify the lost tribes of Israel (as do the number of apostles) it reflects the consolations. 12 is the number to connect God and man.

Being inside the new Jerusalem is being at the Tabernacle, the dwelling place of God on Earth, surrounded by the 12 tribes in the camp they used to protect the Tabernacle in the wondering through the wilderness.

Thats small part of what Revelation is, it’s about stopping the persecution of Jews which originally split the 12 tribes

Oh and the Bible says very little about Hell.

@Kdtym10 Am I right in thinking you're into Esoteric mysticism? If that is the case, it's fair to say our interpretation of the whole Bible will vary considerably!

Hi yes that’s right. However somethings like the size of Jerusalem being shown as 12000 and its link to the return of the 12 tribes of Israel is a position widely held. If things like this are not understood I would suggest it’s going to be impossible to understand the Bible.

its becoming increasingly widely understood Paul was a Jewish Mystic and its v likely, given the symbolism John the Divine was a mystic too. We can argue about the rest but I think those are very widely held positions. Therefore it makes sense to read these works in the manner in which they were written.

As others have tried to explain, there is only one reality and one truth - for everyone. If someone was to jump out of a plane at 36,000 feet, without a parachute, they're going to die. Same for you, same for me.

When it comes to planes and lack of parachutes, that is indeed the case. When it comes to faith it may also be the case, but

1. It is impossible to know that the version you believe is the truth is in fact the truth.
2. There may in fact be more than one way to get to Heaven, if such a place exists, i.e. there may be more than one truth. It is impossible to know.

The plane/parachute situation is a matter of knowledge.
The matter of heaven or otherwise is one of belief. No more, no less.

The Bible is a collection of fictional stories, myths and legends - little credible evidence as to what is and isn’t fact. Much is very far fetched.

@Elphame I am 100% not trolling and in the same way I also pity you for your beliefs.

@Kdtym10 The guy in the video did mention the 12 tribes of Israel - their names are written on the 12 gates of the city. I know the book of Revelation is more widely interpreted due to the nature of the writing. For example, a popular belief is that the Mark of the Beast relates to Emperor Nero as Antichrist and the destruction of the second temple in 70 AD. In contrast, for a number of reasons, I believe this instead points to a future end-times event, rather than something which has already occurred.

@pointythings Agreed, I admit it was a bad analogy for what I was trying to get across to Parker231.

@VincitVeritas1

I believe this instead points to a future end-times event, rather than something which has already occurred.

Have you considered the belief it could be both/all those things and speaks of reoccurring themes within humanity throughout history, now and in the future? Personally, I am happy for it to remain mysterious and try and engage in terms of what can be learnt from it.

Agree with your points. Just because @VincitVeritas1 thinks her opinions are fact and the only position, they obviously aren’t. Thankfully many of us can think for ourselves.

Absolutely @heyhohello I don't claim to own the 'right' interpretation. There are certainly areas of Scripture/ core beliefs I believe we mustn't deviate from, or compromised on, but Revelation isn't one of them. It may well be that John's message was multi-layered.

I had stopped by that point as the guy seemed so at odds with actual scholarship.

I think most scholars are now in agreement that 666 is Nero since the discovery of what is known as papyrus 115 in the 1940s which is the oldest known copy of Revelation which stated the number of the beast was 616. Both numbers are the value of Neros name and title in Aramaic and Latin.

yes it could relate to past and future (at the time of writing), in particular the reincarnation of Nero (which was a popular legend at the time until
at least the 5th century) indeed there are several recorded instances of people supposedly being the reincarnation of Nero nearly starting wars etc. This of course ties in with the common early Christian belief in reincarnation. It also ties in to the supposed second coming of Christ in Revelation. To some extent it would be seen as a reoccurring battle between good and evil. Revelation really does need to be read in the context of the society snd beliefs at the time.

@Kdtym10

This of course ties in with the common early Christian belief in reincarnation.

Are you basing this understanding on Gnostic texts? This is an extra-biblical view, to say the least.

I think most scholars are now in agreement that 666 is Nero since the discovery of what is known as papyrus 115 in the 1940s which is the oldest known copy of Revelation which stated the number of the beast was 616.

I'm not convinced this is agreed on by 'most scholars'. Maybe it's the case among those who take the preterist view, I'm not sure since I obviously don't. I also think using Numerology to interpret the Bible is a risky business.
I believe Nero was AN Antichrist, but not THE Antichrist.

It also ties in to the supposed second coming of Christ in Revelation.

Why do you say 'supposed' here? Do you not believe that Jesus will return?

Also, when you say John the Divine, are you referring to John the Baptist? Why do you think he and Paul were mystics? (I agree about the Jewish part!)

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just curious. 😉

@heyhohello Following on from what I said before, belief in the Rapture is a good example. Christians debate whether it's going to happen pre, mid or post tribulation and others will argue it won't happen at all. A convincing case could be made for all these views, but it doesn't really matter who has the correct interpretation. What we should all be focussing on is being ready for Christ's return now and living as though it were to happen tonight, even if it might not be for another 10,000 years:

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. (Matthew 24:42-44).

I’m basing my view on that held by several prominent early Christian’s. The fact that their view wasn’t carried forward into the established church is neither here nor there, reincarnation was a fairly common belief amongst early Christian’s. It is anachronistic to talk about non- canon texts at that time, because of course there was no canon. There were lots on competing views and gospels. I’m currently looking at Mark, which most think was the first of the gospels in the cannon to be written. If you take the original ending up to 16:8 I think to be it’s quite clear this is supposed to be a circular text.

interesting that you don’t agree with the use of Gematria. Why is that. What do you actually think 666/616 is? Why the difference? What is the reason for repeated use of certain numbers in the bible? You do understand how Hebrew esp works? Also Greek to possibly a lesser extent.

Therr are specific parts of Paul’s writings which mirror Jewish initiatory mystical systems which lead many to believe Paul was an initiated adept. St John the Divine/of Patmos is very clear writing a prophecy which would strongly indicate he has mystic tendencies.

Will Jesus come again? Probably not. But I’m 100% certain christ will.

@Kdtym10 Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I’m basing my view on that held by several prominent early Christian’s.

That's a yes to the gnostic texts then?

reincarnation was a fairly common belief amongst early Christian’s.

Only among the Gnostic believers. Hebrews 9:27 alone rather pours cold water all over the notion of resurrection - "...Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..."

interesting that you don’t agree with the use of Gematria.

It was the use of Numerology I don't agree with. This article explains the difference well:

https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/what-is-the-difference-between-gematria-and-numerology

What do you actually think 666/616 is?

I believe it will become apparent during the tribulation period when everyone will be forced to take a 'mark' in order to be able to buy and sell. This could represent the number of a barcode/ microchip/ tattoo or similar:

"It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666." (Revelation 13:16-18).

Paul was an initiated adept

Apologies, but I have no idea what one of these is, or why Paul might have been one.

St John the Divine/of Patmos is very clear writing a prophecy which would strongly indicate he has mystic tendencies.

Ah, that John! I'm also not sure what constitutes 'mystic tendencies' but I would say that a lot of other people throughout Scripture experienced visions and dreams. John received a direct revelation from God, as the Old Testament Prophets, such as Ezekiel, had done before him. God still speaks to people today in dreams and visions, through the Holy Spirit.

Will Jesus come again? Probably not. But I’m 100% certain christ will.

In what way do you think the two are separate?

“I’m basing my view on that held by several prominent early Christian’s.

That's a yes to the gnostic texts then?”

Not exactly, I’m basing this on the teachings of several prominent early Christians The term Gnostic in this context had little meaning at that time, early Christianity comprised of many different groups with different doctrines. It’s an anachronistic term. Iraneaus is largely responsible here, creating a then and is mentality esp with his “against heresies” . We can delves separately into this (again) if you want to, but the fact remains that many early Christians believed in reincarnation.

“reincarnation was a fairly common belief amongst early Christian’s.

Only among the Gnostic believers. Hebrews 9:27 alone rather pours cold water all over the notion of resurrection - "...Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..."”

See above re “Gnostic believers”. The passage you quote has nothing to do with reincarnation. This passage is talking about the concept of “second death” which was a commonly held belief in the Middle East at that time. A belief that after the earthly “first death” you would then suffer a second death. Although the actual detail varies it was always linked to judgement. What is being said here is that for those who are saved there will be no “second death”. The idea of a second death is mention several times in Revelation. As I was saying, it’s important to understand the culture and beliefs of the society which gave rise to these writings.

in summart the passage from Hebrews does “pour cold water all over the notion of resurrection” it is talking about something entirely different. It’s so so important to understand the contemporary religious concepts when looking at the Bible if you’re going to understand it.

interestingly I see the concept of a second death quite a bit in the occult world still (which is probably why I’m more aware of it)

im really not sure what you’re saying re numerology, this has not been mentioned or alluded to can you please expand why you think numerology is relevant in the current discussion.

I’ve been very clear we are talking about Gematria this involves “calculation”/reckoning. Gematria takes the relevant number eg in Hebrew Aleph is 1, Beth 2 etc for each letter and add them up. Doing this to Nero Caeser will give you 666 or 616 depending on what language is used. This is literally doing exactly what it tells you to in Revelation.

Are you seriously suggesting a text of nearly 2000 years of age was contemplating barcodes???? It wouldn’t be more sensible to suggest it was alluding to sin and moral slavery and coins bearing the emperors name/image. The covid vaccines didn’t carry a microchip.

Yes that John, as we discussing Revelation I thought it was obvious we were discussing the John who had the er Revelation. Yes the Bible is full of mystics- probably tells you a bit about how it should be interpreted!

I’ll put some links re Jewish Mysticism. It’s very important to understand this. Especially if you’re following Pauline doctrine.

Jesus was a man. Christ is a way of being, a title separate from the man. It’s a way of being/title anyone can reach.

Hope that helps clear up any confusion