Soul Survivor thread 2

[BadSkiingMum]

This is a thread for anyone following the events at Soul Survivor or wishing to discuss their own experiences or the experiences of their loved ones within evangelical, charismatic and pentecostal religious spaces.

This bit suggests he was struggling-
– if you listen to songs like “Abide With Me”, “It Is Well With My Soul” and “Songs in the Night” you can probably tell my life hasn’t been all calm breezes and sweet-smelling roses this last little while.

And what he says about SS is all true and he’s still say it now, I think. All three on the video talked about the good things God did at SS.

I know someone deeply influenced by several movements which, like SS, have recently been shown to have appalling safeguarding failures that were underway while he was there and he was oblivious to them. He is too old for SS, but apart from that one it feels like he was right there in several separate appalling situations.
He’s had to take time to process the influences they had on him, what was positive, and whether there was anything negative he needed to explore for his own practice. Basically he came to faith in places with damaged boundaries and had to learn whether he carried that influence. But he maintains God was at work.

Pete and Tim Hughes statement link is here https://www.instagram.com/p/C5imyX2C8j3/?igsh=aG40eWsycTF4bmEw

Again they told church authorities and were ignored. How dare those church authorities ignore them, it's absolutely horrendous how MP was allowed to continue his abuse.

I can’t see the second half of the statement. It must be hard to have things to say but need to wait for the safeguarding review to be completed.

@PrimitivePerson I didn’t know there was a pioneer review. Good. Is BK involved? I went to his church as a student…

Who's BK? It's a long time since I was involved.

Here they both are

Apart from the awful abuse that should never have happened and the failure that let it continue….

What gets my goat is the unbearable burden of safeguarding procedures on tiny churches, carefully adhered to for the protection of all involved and to signal vigorously that we are not an easy target for predators…. while this was allowed to continue for upward of 15 years after being formally reported.

And in my area, safeguarding procedures require ministers to step back for periods painful for them and their churches, over complaints which bear no relation to this!

I have just watched it. and just trying to process what I heard and read.

I don't understand why what Mike did wasn't criminal if Matt was 13 and boundaries were crossed. It's like he ABSOLUTELY knew where the criminal line was and he went right up to it and no further.
He clearly was a woman hater too.

I watched the documentary yesterday. I thought the Redman’s brought together a lot of very disturbing and painful experiences in a sensitive and forthright way. I thought they got the tone just right.

And I love Amy Orr Ewing - she almost makes me want to be a Christian again. Almost.

I think Pilivachi has only gotten away with it because the sexually inappropriate massage contact was with young men over the age of 18. I remember that the police reviewed the situation fairly early on and decided not to press charges.

I am not sure of the legal status of the wrestling contact, but it was obviously highly inappropriate for a man in Pilivachi’s position to be doing this with children. Horrible.😕

Without wishing to speculate, I imagine he feels hard done by because he didn’t cross those lines. From his PoV, he restrained himself.

Abuse doesn’t need to involve rape, assault or other physical actions. It’s the emotional manipulation and the exploitation of people who you are supposed to love and care for.

I have struggled with all this. I had a disastrous couple of years in the vineyard as an "intern" /trainee pastor. It wasn't physically abusive but really screwed me up.

I am not in the church world now but I had in my head loved the soul survivor period of my life. All the excitement and promise of the future. My background was a tricky family too so there was so much hope and promise in shiny church life and being used for God.

I resent so much.

I also shudder from the shine around frog and Amy. I'm sure they're actually lovely but there is so much money that's followed them and they're in the Iwerne trust/at aldates shiny circles and live such a shiny wealthy life of farms and private schools and going from speaking engagement to speaking engagement. If anything I think they're "followed"and "worshipped" more than Mike pilavachi. Especially but grown ups. They've got a huge cult following and seem to live in their own hallowed circles.

But I left that world and am quite bitter. Really feels an odd place to be.

I couldn’t agree more.
MP won’t see his behaviour as abusive, I don’t think.

This interview is better than the film, I think, in that there's at least some acknowledgment that they were involved in propping up MP (at least during their time at the church; though arguably it continued): https://www.premierchristianity.com/interviews/there-was-a-lot-of-psychological-bullying-matt-and-beth-redman-on-mike-pilavachi-abuse/17485.article
I seem to be playing the nasty cynic here but I couldn't agree more with LotsOfBalloons about the Drs Orr-Ewing. They're part of a network of privately-educated British evangelicals, conservative on sexuality (and actively campaigning against more liberal values in the church), disproportionately influential and PR-savvy. She has somehow managed to distance herself from her executive role in Ravi Zacharias International Ministries during the period in which Ravi Zacharias was abusing women. Now she has set herself up as an authority on abuse and suffering, owing to her Theology DPhil (on Dorothy L. Sayers, not the psychology of trauma or any related subject), and the sad story of her husband's childhood trauma, which seemed to be publicly discussed shortly after the Zacharias affair. I'm afraid that if anyone makes me want to become a practising Christian again, it's not her.

Who are Frog and Amy?
Is Frog a nickname for someone in that film?

Agree with @LotsOfBalloons too, the money, the glamour, private schools. I remember years ago on mumsnet trying to bring this up and getting shouted down by various Christians and told that this did not happen and was not possible. The mission ski trips, the exotic holidays to promote soul survivor records.

A circuit of HTB, st Aldates, the London stock broker set. It was a factory for mediocre white men to be ordained.

I am trying to remember who the trustees were in early 2000s.

I looked them up

Until Vanechka’s post which explains more, I wondered whether we were at risk of mistrusting things which are popular.

I have an inner leaning to that approach, finding the ‘shiny happy people’ unrepresentative of real church. A church near me is, frankly, very unattractive. I can’t imagine anyone wanting to go there. The dying congregation are awkward, socially beyond clumsy, and physically unattractive. It’s in an area of deprivation. They also host a food bank, and are to their own capacity faithful Christians. They are the church. Most ‘real’ congregations can and do cope with a few members like that, it’s the imbalance that makes that one spectacularly difficult! I think they’ve sponsored at least one ordinand from their midst!

I like Rick Warren. Successful, but humble, from what I can see. He and his wife ‘reverse tithe’. They give away 90% of their (substantial) income.

https://www.cla.org.uk/news/the-vicar-turned-farmer-building-a-rural-community/

https://www.latimerminster.org/meet-frog

They are never called to poor, unattractive areas are they? Always the wealthy and buzzing parts.

I think Frog is Amy Orr-Ewings husband

Sorry yes Frog is Amy's husband. They were super popular in the private school/St aldates set even before he was ordained.

And yes there's a circle of money/ordained ministers around St Aldates/htb/ iwerne minster and stewards trust. All privately educated and house parties private school kids went to, followed by oxbridge followed by ordination and the curacy in one of the circle. Often conservative theology (especially sexually) but lively evangelical services.

I was in that bubble for a bit so perhaps some of my disillusionment is from having left it but in my experience only the shiny happy people stay in It and many of us who have Life Happen enf up outside it.

Also these ministers end up so far removed from real life that their life is one whole jolly (maybe not quite) and they end up paid to follow pet projects /just to be...

In fairness, they do seem to allow quite a lot of people to use their land for non-profit making purposes. But, I guess they were able to buy the farm and the land in the first place? Which isn't quite consistent with all the years studying and becoming an ordained minister, so hints at some family or inherited wealth...

Is being 'generous' and 'giving' (whether that is time/money/hospitality) a luxury choice in the first place? I am talking in social terms not necessarily just Christian terms.

It takes me back to episode 2 of Rev, with the invasion of the glamorous evangelicals. It all looks so simple when you have youth, health, time, money and energy on your side.

But on a Soul Survivor note, James Heywood (blog and twitter) did a great job of delving into the finances of Soul Survivor and Soul 61 - worth a read if you have not already.

Oh I loved Rev. That episode was spot on.

And yes so easy to be giving and generous when in a position of wealth/power. But there is still that power imbalance. It irks me too when Christians move into a "poor neighbourhood" to be light/minister as it's often due to middle classness or just money that they are able to do this and they're no better than the people who live there already...

And I don't actually know frog and Amy at all it's just I was in those shiny similar circles and they had 3 kids in private school and a lot of wealth it seems. There's a certain ease that some people attribute to God answering prayers /gods blessing (new job/hoises/trips etc) that really are due to wealth and connections.

Not that this is all Mike P specific but it's SO related to that world and I think these guys are good examples of others that have a cult following. Why else go round the world to deliver sermons and lectures and talks....

To be fair, gorgeous affluent people need Jesus too, and children certainly do.

I was enabled to foster because of my advantage- only those blessed with stability and a spare bedroom can do that. Still needs doing.

So I have mixed feelings. The congregation should reflect diversity though- people with crooked teeth, with/without children, age, etc.

Interesting conversation! I’m learning lots!