Soul Survivor thread 2

[BadSkiingMum]

This is a thread for anyone following the events at Soul Survivor or wishing to discuss their own experiences or the experiences of their loved ones within evangelical, charismatic and pentecostal religious spaces.

One part of me wonders what they can say? Ah, yes, he fooled us too. We thought it was because he’s Greek.

Thanks for posting - one to watch!
We still need to hear from the official enquiry at Soul Survivor?

Brace yourselves for the Pioneer enquiry report coming very shortly too. They all thought they were completely untouchable for years.

I didn't find MP moody but he was in the early part of his career when he ran our youth group.

Definitely gravitated towards the more rebellious kids (male and female) but he seemed really nice in a down to earth, charismatic way to the teenage me. Clearly my judgment was lacking or maybe he hid it better back then. I still walk past his old house most days and it makes me feel uneasy at how he abused his position.

Actually uneasy isn't the right word, more appalled.

@PrimitivePerson are there questions around Pioneer churches?

Oh, god, yes.

An independent enquiry was launched in the summer, to which I contributed. They messed me up good and proper. Gerald Coates created a maelstrom of abusive practices.

Have you seen Tim and Pete Hughes Instagram today? They explain their departure from SS.
As others have said the Premier podcast is excellent, very well done. I'm not really a Premier regular and had assumed things about the quality of their output! I thought I was listening to Radio 4, good journalism.

@PrimitivePerson I hadn't realised there was an investigation into Pioneer churches as I no longer mix in those circles - but I very much did so in the 1990's/2000's and I look back at some of it in a "wtf" kind of way.

Absolutely. I spent a year out on their TIE Teams programme in the early 90s, as a rather clueless 18 year old. I thought it was great at the time, but looking back I'm horrified about the way we were treated and what we did. They had absolutely no safeguards at all and really seriously overstepped boundaries.

Does anyone remember the Christian "festivals" for want of a better word at Butlins in Skegness in the late 1990s/early 2000s? I can't remember if they were spring Harvest or called sonething else? I'm sure I saw MP there although I did come across him at Soul survivor as well.

Just catching up on all the developments , it’s truly shocking .

I'm listening to the Jeremy Vine feature on Mike Pilavachi. While I appreciate what the Redmans had to say, I'm angry that they seem to be so forgiving. They talked about how Christianity gives us all further chances etc, but there's a lot of us who aren't Christians any more because of the abuse we've suffered.

Personally, I'm not so forgiving towards these people.

I think "being forgiving" or "accepting we're all sinners so shouldn't judge" is the type of attitude that allows this kind of thing to go on.

Jeremy Vine was really keen to stress that the police weren't involved or no crimes had been committed (or words to that effect) but then when they went on to describe what went on, it seemed (to me) that in any other circumstances this would be classed as abuse and a crime?

I saw that but Tim (I think) still made MP godfather to his daughter in 2007 didn’t he?

I am wondering why Duncan Layzell has not made a statement?

Co director, wife ran the soul61 course

@elliejjtiny My church still has their head in the sand and refuses to talk about it at all. They are all (except me) saying they've never heard of MP so it doesn't matter. Personally I think as an absolute minimum it's a wake up call for all churches and we should all be reviewing safeguarding policies.

Exactly. Every single church should listen to the podcast and watch that video. Every single church across the country should be looking at its own activities and recognising exactly how easy it is for this sort of behaviour to go unchallenged.

'It's nothing to do with us' and 'it won't happen here' are exactly why it does. I think it was Matt Redman who said he was told 'oh that's just Mike. That's just the way he is'. That attitude makes me so angry.

It may well not- bullying maybe. Obviously abusive. But it may not meet Criminal thresholds. I wonder whether that’s part of the problem in responding.

Teachers/lecturers having affairs with young adult students (or even over 16?) are disciplined within the profession under safeguarding rather than criminal proceedings, I think.

As for forgiveness, I think you can forgive while still requiring justice, consequences, better safeguards, and having nothing to do with him ever again.

Forgiveness has been a thorny one for the church, and needs spelling out constantly that it isn’t an excuse for looking the other way. You can require full acceptance of guilt first.
Truth and reconciliation and all that.

This may be an unpopular viewpoint, but I was disappointed that they didn't acknowledge any kind of responsibility for enabling MP to continue his abuse by remaining in the church and upholding his ministry for many years. Yes, they were victims of his behaviour and they have made this film but unless I'm mistaken this is the first time they've really publicly talked about what was going on. It feels a bit like they've waited until they had a 'product' to publicise. Maybe if they'd talked about it sooner after leaving the church themselves, fewer people would have suffered.

I'm really trying hard not to victim blame and let me anger over my own treatment in another church make me react more harshly. But I do feel a little bit cynical about their motives in making this film now rather than before all the other stuff came out.

I think grooming is difficult. When you are inside something, it can be hard to see where the lines are. You decide to leave, because it’s unhealthy for you perhaps due to your own weaknesses. Then you find out later it’s getting worse and raise it with those in authority and are told no it’s all fine.

Only people outside can reliably see these kind of dynamics, I think. It can take time and perspective to understand there has been abuse. Which is why I don’t think we’ll ever see an end to safeguarding scandals.

Exactly. I only realised my year out with Pioneer had been abusive about 20 years later, when I'd left charismatic churches far behind and was about to give up on my faith completely.

In fairness, Matt Redman did make a statement fairly early on didn’t he? There’s certainly a whole queue of people and organisations who didn’t for ages or still have yet to do so.

I watched the video last night and liked it. Beth Redman’s interview was particularly interesting - it seems fairly clear that Pilivachi really didn’t like women.

My only comment would be that it lacked an introductory section of ‘this is what and who we are talking about’. If you didn’t know, then it would be quite confusing!

This. I've been wondering how to make a similar point so glad you've done it so well. It's good that they've spoken out, genuinely, and I'm genuinely sorry about what they went through. As others have said, grooming and manipulation are really complex and it's too easy to deflect blame onto its victims. But I felt the focus on the emotional debt MR owed to MP completely diverted from any focus on other debts in terms of his high profile in the Christian world - including the financial rewards of book and music sales. Brand Soul Survivor, which definitely had a commercial dimension, was built by MR and MP together. Neither of them individually would have done it. My recollection of being at SSW for a period in the late 90s is that Matt and Beth were very influential in their own right, unlike other members of the church who were also mistreated, and certainly became huge - Grammy award etc. Here's Matt in 2015, promoting his latest album, talking about his "great journey with Mike P and Soul Survivor" https://www.musicademy.com/matt-redman-interview/

My thoughts about Beth were that Mike didn’t like his young men having girlfriends. Though they couldn’t have understood that at the time.

I felt for Matt, acknowledging his abuse and that Mike had helped him through that- though teenage him couldn’t have understood how inappropriate that was. I didn’t know that about Matt.

I wonder how old Matt was when he realised Mike’s behaviour towards him couldn’t be excused as part of their special relationship?