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Soul Survivor thread 2

312 replies

BadSkiingMum · 09/09/2023 21:24

This is a thread for anyone following the events at Soul Survivor or wishing to discuss their own experiences or the experiences of their loved ones within evangelical, charismatic and pentecostal religious spaces.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
MrsJamin · 15/09/2023 06:19

For me it was the elephant in the room at New Wine... The only thing that hinted at the topic was a seminar on abuse of power in leadership for young adults only (I was refused entry! ) I won't be going to NW again, I was there for the wrong reasons.

MrsJamin · 15/09/2023 06:31

Finally a statement from New Wine https://twitter.com/NewWineEngland/status/1702004212429992206?t=6YgPxm80_1B-xtkmMnWoBg&s=19 but it is not truthful about how inextricably linked the two organisations were! Pathetic.

https://twitter.com/NewWineEngland/status/1702004212429992206?s=19&t=6YgPxm80_1B-xtkmMnWoBg

LotsOfBalloons · 15/09/2023 08:01

Wow that truly is pathetic.

They're distancing themselves but the 2 were completely interlinked ffs!!!!

PrimitivePerson · 15/09/2023 10:17

MrsJamin · 15/09/2023 06:31

Finally a statement from New Wine https://twitter.com/NewWineEngland/status/1702004212429992206?t=6YgPxm80_1B-xtkmMnWoBg&s=19 but it is not truthful about how inextricably linked the two organisations were! Pathetic.

The thing that bugs me about this statement is that they talk about the victims receiving "healing from Jesus". I don't want healing from Jesus because I'm not a Christian any more. I want the church to stop abusing people, to punish those responsible, and to properly make restitution to the victims.

LolaSmiles · 15/09/2023 10:32

The statement from New Wine is awful.

Compare that to a statement released by one of the Vineyard churches that MP was involved with and it's difficult to think there's any substance behind the New Wine statement.

MrsJamin · 16/09/2023 07:12

New Wine have written another statement but it's still not nearly enough! They need to say

  • Mike, Soul Survivor and New Wine were linked in many ways for decades.
  • Mike met at least one of his abuse victims at New Wine (David Gate)
  • They are going to start their own internal investigation to seek to understand how this was able to happen and make changes.
How did they get this wrong, twice?!
Soul Survivor thread 2
LotsOfBalloons · 16/09/2023 07:16

Someone complained to them then whcih is good. But yes it doesn't go for enough.

It's like when the statement came out in the first place about MP being accused and other christinas minimised it.

LolaSmiles · 16/09/2023 07:24

I agree with you, MrsJamin. That still doesn't go far enough.

They need to acknowledge that the organisations were very closely related and in my opinion outline the various ways they they were linked, with MP's involvement being clear. Anyone involved in evangelical circles knows that there were a lot of organisations that seemed to have free flow of speakers, pastors and leaders between them.

Transparency is the only way forward from here.

Oreosandtigers · 16/09/2023 07:24

I can’t believe I’ve only just discovered this thread. I’ve been following this for months through Twitter as a Christian Londoner going to Pilavchis talks etc
I’ve not seen this talked about through my cohort and don’t really understand why and it really has put me off going to church. I used to be at HTB and they have been silent on this. It’s so upsetting. I love God and hate the church right now.

Brilliantlydone · 16/09/2023 07:27

I didn't realise that Bishop Jill is one of the trustees of new wine!

LotsOfBalloons · 16/09/2023 07:36

The silence from regular churches is huge isnt it.

pickledandpuzzled · 16/09/2023 08:24

LotsOfBalloons · 16/09/2023 07:36

The silence from regular churches is huge isnt it.

Regular churches will be waiting for investigations and statements from those directly involved. Unless they have a direct and specific involvement themselves.

My small church didn't send any YP to souls survivor, though we considered it at one time. Even if we had, we'd be speaking to those who went & their parents, not making statements.

EducatingArti · 16/09/2023 11:57

My "regular" church did take young people to Soul Survivor for some years. To their credit they have sent out a letter to all members, even before the results of the investigation were published. It was similar in tone to the Elim statement here
( my church is not part of Elim)
https://www.elim.org.uk/Articles/662770/Elim_statement_regarding.aspx
But with added info about how the church takes safeguarding seriously, who the safeguarding officers are and who to contact with concerns etc.
I am pleased they did this.

Elim statement regarding the ongoing safeguarding investigation into Mike Pilavachi

At statement from Elim and Limitless, along with details of how to raise a concern.

https://www.elim.org.uk/Articles/662770/Elim_statement_regarding.aspx

LolaSmiles · 16/09/2023 12:08

Regular churches will be waiting for investigations and statements from those directly involved. Unless they have a direct and specific involvement themselves
That's what I'd suspect. I wouldn't expect a regular church who might have done a trip to Soul Survivor or Momentum to be issue a comprehensive statement.

Vanechka · 16/09/2023 16:25

Brilliantlydone · 16/09/2023 07:27

I didn't realise that Bishop Jill is one of the trustees of new wine!

Not just one of them, but Chair. This thread and the one on Thinking Anglicans led me to The Beautiful Story video made by the Church of England Evangelical Council (this is not a recommendation). At a certain point Bishop Jill says - very uncomfortably - that in the course of private prayer, she sensed God's judgment on homosexual acts. This struck me as a pretty shocking use of clerical (indeed episcopal) authority, linked in with the cultural problems with authority in this particular milieu, in which prophetic intuitions are given a high status. Another nail in the coffin of my faith in the CofE clergy and bishops; I'm sad that it was driven in by a female bishop.

Cherryana · 16/09/2023 17:44

In my experience people who hold deep godly convictions about homosexuality usually are denying something fundamental within themselves that they view as ‘out of alignment with God’s will’. So externalise/spew their own discomfort onto everyone else. When you have a public platform and larger sphere of influence - this spewing is a problem.

Brilliantlydone · 16/09/2023 18:47

Vanechka · 16/09/2023 16:25

Not just one of them, but Chair. This thread and the one on Thinking Anglicans led me to The Beautiful Story video made by the Church of England Evangelical Council (this is not a recommendation). At a certain point Bishop Jill says - very uncomfortably - that in the course of private prayer, she sensed God's judgment on homosexual acts. This struck me as a pretty shocking use of clerical (indeed episcopal) authority, linked in with the cultural problems with authority in this particular milieu, in which prophetic intuitions are given a high status. Another nail in the coffin of my faith in the CofE clergy and bishops; I'm sad that it was driven in by a female bishop.

Yes I've heard her say similar. I think Blackburn diocese has a huge issue with homosexuality.

JustWingingItAgain · 17/09/2023 08:57

There’s a post on Facebook by Neil Bennett. He posted this yesterday in response to the New Wine statement:

As a spiritual abuse survivor, as well as someone who was significantly involved in New Wine for many years, I think it was right that New Wine apologised for their initial statement on Mike and Soul Survivor. The original statement was very poor.

Using the word ‘disappointing’ was a bad decision: as anyone who has suffered spiritual abuse knows, it can have a deep and far reaching impact. Often victims have to walk away from jobs, their source of income and their church community and have physical and mental health issues caused by their trauma that can take years to address. ‘Disappointing’ doesn’t come close in reflecting their experience.

Organisations using the recent statements from Soul Survivor as a platform for advertising how good their own safeguarding processes are and how humble and accountable their leadership is, also misses the point. Most spiritual abuse happens in the gap between how organisations are perceived and how they actually behave. One of the reasons that victims find it almost impossible to have their stories heard is because the abuser is held in high regard by others. This is not the time to try and bolster our own reputations. It only adds to victims fear. Rather, it is time for contrition, listening and repentance.

Maybe most concerning was the way the original statement tried to distance New Wine from connections with Mike. Although the two organisations were separate legal entities, in pretty much every other respect they were family. Churches sent their youth groups to Soul Survivor - they would camp for NW and their youth would stay on site for SS. We shared speakers and worship leaders. I led worship at many NW conferences in England and parts of Europe. Mike was a regular speaker. One of New Wine’s previous national leaders, who resigned for well publicised reasons (including - as described by their bishop - for abuse of power), was quickly re-platformed by Mike at one of his events. Another of New Wine’s leadership team from that time went on to partner his church with Mike at Soul Survivor. Worship leaders and staff moved from one organisation to the other. Some young people from New Wine churches were part of their year out program.

Our connections went deep and wide, right up until last year.

This makes me want to ask: what was actually known - at the highest levels of New Wine - about Mike’s behaviour over the years, knowing all these connections?

As someone who led worship at NW events and was responsible for inviting worship leaders, who themselves sometimes shared leadership with Mike at those events, it now makes me feel sick knowing what could have been going on behind the scenes. Did I inadvertently put victims in close proximity to their abuser at New Wine or Trinity Cheltenham? I am so so sorry if that ever happened. (I have tried to connect with many worship leaders in recent months to check in …but I know this feels a little inadequate).

Trying to create distance between Mike and New Wine is the wrong approach. Actually, any organisation should be going back over their previous connections and events, trying to identify people who could have been effected on their watch, and making it as easy and fear-free as possible for them to share their experiences. What we actually need is to be much much closer to it all.

New Wine now say that they want to be a place where victims will be heard without fear, to be cherished with love and respect. As someone who still lives with fear with my own experiences, I want to ask: how does an organisation like New Wine actually make that happen? Because if it doesn’t affect its behaviour, then these are just empty words.

In respect of my own experiences, I have received a small measure of private empathy from those organisations involved, but never any public advocacy. I’m sure that most people have no idea what happened. This has been very painful. I suspect like me, what most spiritual abuse victims want is this: the ability to have their story heard and believed without fear of reprisals; to be able to explain to others their own actions (such as… why they left the organisation, their church, their ministry - often things they loved deeply); some sort of reparation where extreme hardship has ensued; greater transparency and health for organisations to minimise the chance that others will experience what they have experienced; and the knowledge that their abusers and others like them will not continue to be celebrated or quickly reappointed elsewhere.

I no longer feel safe at many of the organisations that I previously gave myself to. They no longer have my heart. Yet, my faith is strong and my family is strong, and my passion for justice is more alive than ever before. Not every abuse survivor has been so fortunate. I offer these thoughts - somewhat fearfully - in the hope of change.

MrsJamin · 17/09/2023 12:57

Thank you for sharing your experience @JustWingingItAgain
I found this really interesting (shared on twitter/X), highlighting how useless it is to just point to Mike and say "It's just one bad apple" - the whole structure of the church is the problem ; how certain people are heralded and listened to much more than others: https://viewfromthealps.substack.com/p/pilavachi-systems-apples-and-orchards

Pilavachi, systems, apples and orchards.

Instead of talking about the one bad apple, we need to talk about the way that the orchard is structured to continue getting the results we are getting.

https://viewfromthealps.substack.com/p/pilavachi-systems-apples-and-orchards

pickledandpuzzled · 17/09/2023 13:09

JustWingingItAgain · 17/09/2023 08:57

There’s a post on Facebook by Neil Bennett. He posted this yesterday in response to the New Wine statement:

As a spiritual abuse survivor, as well as someone who was significantly involved in New Wine for many years, I think it was right that New Wine apologised for their initial statement on Mike and Soul Survivor. The original statement was very poor.

Using the word ‘disappointing’ was a bad decision: as anyone who has suffered spiritual abuse knows, it can have a deep and far reaching impact. Often victims have to walk away from jobs, their source of income and their church community and have physical and mental health issues caused by their trauma that can take years to address. ‘Disappointing’ doesn’t come close in reflecting their experience.

Organisations using the recent statements from Soul Survivor as a platform for advertising how good their own safeguarding processes are and how humble and accountable their leadership is, also misses the point. Most spiritual abuse happens in the gap between how organisations are perceived and how they actually behave. One of the reasons that victims find it almost impossible to have their stories heard is because the abuser is held in high regard by others. This is not the time to try and bolster our own reputations. It only adds to victims fear. Rather, it is time for contrition, listening and repentance.

Maybe most concerning was the way the original statement tried to distance New Wine from connections with Mike. Although the two organisations were separate legal entities, in pretty much every other respect they were family. Churches sent their youth groups to Soul Survivor - they would camp for NW and their youth would stay on site for SS. We shared speakers and worship leaders. I led worship at many NW conferences in England and parts of Europe. Mike was a regular speaker. One of New Wine’s previous national leaders, who resigned for well publicised reasons (including - as described by their bishop - for abuse of power), was quickly re-platformed by Mike at one of his events. Another of New Wine’s leadership team from that time went on to partner his church with Mike at Soul Survivor. Worship leaders and staff moved from one organisation to the other. Some young people from New Wine churches were part of their year out program.

Our connections went deep and wide, right up until last year.

This makes me want to ask: what was actually known - at the highest levels of New Wine - about Mike’s behaviour over the years, knowing all these connections?

As someone who led worship at NW events and was responsible for inviting worship leaders, who themselves sometimes shared leadership with Mike at those events, it now makes me feel sick knowing what could have been going on behind the scenes. Did I inadvertently put victims in close proximity to their abuser at New Wine or Trinity Cheltenham? I am so so sorry if that ever happened. (I have tried to connect with many worship leaders in recent months to check in …but I know this feels a little inadequate).

Trying to create distance between Mike and New Wine is the wrong approach. Actually, any organisation should be going back over their previous connections and events, trying to identify people who could have been effected on their watch, and making it as easy and fear-free as possible for them to share their experiences. What we actually need is to be much much closer to it all.

New Wine now say that they want to be a place where victims will be heard without fear, to be cherished with love and respect. As someone who still lives with fear with my own experiences, I want to ask: how does an organisation like New Wine actually make that happen? Because if it doesn’t affect its behaviour, then these are just empty words.

In respect of my own experiences, I have received a small measure of private empathy from those organisations involved, but never any public advocacy. I’m sure that most people have no idea what happened. This has been very painful. I suspect like me, what most spiritual abuse victims want is this: the ability to have their story heard and believed without fear of reprisals; to be able to explain to others their own actions (such as… why they left the organisation, their church, their ministry - often things they loved deeply); some sort of reparation where extreme hardship has ensued; greater transparency and health for organisations to minimise the chance that others will experience what they have experienced; and the knowledge that their abusers and others like them will not continue to be celebrated or quickly reappointed elsewhere.

I no longer feel safe at many of the organisations that I previously gave myself to. They no longer have my heart. Yet, my faith is strong and my family is strong, and my passion for justice is more alive than ever before. Not every abuse survivor has been so fortunate. I offer these thoughts - somewhat fearfully - in the hope of change.

Powerful words.

KeepHavingFun · 17/09/2023 14:02

Yes, @JustWingingItAgain thank you for sharing Neil Bennetts Facebook post about his experience of spiritual abuse.
It explains so clearly how challenging this is for everyone to address and how inadequate many statements being made by organisations about the soul survivor situation are.
So many people surviving the aftermath of spiritual abuse.

MrsJamin · 17/09/2023 14:05

Apologies @JustWingingItAgain i misread your post as yours and not Neil Bennett 🙈
Thanks for sharing though.

KeepHavingFun · 19/09/2023 19:33

And when I say speak up, I mean show up. The silence is deafening.

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