Soul Survivor thread 2

[BadSkiingMum]

This is a thread for anyone following the events at Soul Survivor or wishing to discuss their own experiences or the experiences of their loved ones within evangelical, charismatic and pentecostal religious spaces.

Please could you like to the article from Crydon Vineyard? the other article mentioned upthread is behind a paywall but very interested in what other churches have to say about the fallibility of Christian leaders as we have a huge issue with this in the pentecostal setting. Thanks

It’s been a long time source of puzzlement to me that these privileged people who have often gone from teenagers at SS to ordained ministers without ever having worked in a ‘normal job’ can preach to others.

Agree, @Befonce

I met a young nun when I attended an in-service CPD session as a teacher. She explained that, in her order, everyone had a 'service' profession as well as being a nun. She taught by day and went home to the order at night. She was lovely and very low key about it.

On a general note, I think that as soon as someone stands on a stage/platform/dais and 'leads' worship, there is a slippery slope to worship and adulation of them. Which leads to safeguarding risks, human beings being what they are.

I'm going to seem chippy and resentful in this discussion about the relationship between social status/wealth and spiritual authority, and that's probably because I am. I think there are good reasons for being deeply dubious about it. There's something disturbing about the spiritual deference of the many to the few, and about the sense of entitlement to the pulpit that comes with a certain social background (not surprising too that it goes with gender hierarchalism). Soul Survivor definitely isn't the worst example of it, but there are these people in the background (James Heywood knows more about this), and New Wine was taken over by a public school crew. I'm now in a University environment with lots of posh clergy around and I've just got so sick of hearing sermons by those (especially men) who never had any serious survival struggle in their lives, and being told by them what to think about the God in whom I live and move and have my being. Sorry to vent. I'm totally comfortable with saying that the rich "need Jesus too" if that means they "need love" like everyone else. I'm less comfortable when the name of Jesus is used to uphold church authority, or conservative doctrine, by those with a socially-rooted interest in upholding those things.

Yes Befonce and Vaneka that's it exactly. Of course rich privileged people need church (well. I may have moved away from that position but for arguments sake) as much as the next guy but that isn't really the point.

https://croydonvineyard.org.uk/cv-leaders/statement-on-mike-pilavachi

Here's croyden vineyards statement.

That’s interesting, Balloons, particularly that bit about the kingdom rather than intersectionality. Needs some thought.

I agree with a lot of what you say, @Vanechka . I would say though, the gospel needs to be spread in all communities, each having an awareness of their own needs.

Power and privilege certainly shouldn’t be propped up. People from less privileged backgrounds can also be arrogant and inappropriate.

No one should be holding themselves up as an example- all we are is fellow pilgrims each with obstacles, successes and mistakes.

I feel like the if you are truly following Jesus and take on board the things he said you should be sharing your privilege and wealth, using it to lift others up, not lifting yourself up to lord it over others.

I don’t know - I had the privilege of going to university at 18, but had to support myself from a young age.

I remember the distinct feeling that certain routes/options (albeit ‘worthy’) were cut off to me because I couldn’t have afforded to risk/live that precarious lifestyle.

Agreed.

Aged 20, one of my close friends from home was lauding one summer how she was living by faith at uni. When she really needed money, she prayed and God gave it to her. It was said quite judgementally with a clear direction I should be doing the same and not complaining. God would provide.

When I asked a few more questions, turns out the money only ever came from her very rich parents, or her boyfriend who worked full time and saw her at least every fortnight.

I had neither. Friend got quite cross with me when I told her it was an easy option for her to live by faith and i would have done so too if I had rich parents or a working boyfriend who could bail me out.

I was really keen to "take a year out for the church" like several others were doing, but I couldn't afford to. Nor was I comfortable accepting state benefits to do so, as a few of the others did, as I would have been choosing not to work. Growing up on benefits meant I was given a sense of "don't apply for them unless you absolutely have to"

The rich middle class have always been my experience of happy clappy Christianity.

I haven’t seen genuine living by faith. I’ve seen a few people who think they do. From my perspective they have been lazy and chaotic and happy for other people to bail them out.

One passive aggressively posts on FB about a bill which has come in which is beyond her ability to pay. Another is generous and has no ability to plan so she spends until there’s none left then waits with childlike faith until something unexpected happens then starts again. She’s got a massive debt to someone who lent her the money in Christian love and has now discovered that the recipients easy come easy go means she may well never get it back.

Separately, I don’t think we can complain about middle class people moving to and ministering on deprived estates, and also about them ministering in circles of similar privilege.

I am massively concerned about the growth of conservative evangelical churches though- which seems to be the norm among those wealthy middle class churches, though I don’t know why.

They are then the better funded churches. In my area it feels as though those churches are better funded centrally as well- grants and whatnot- so they inevitably grow and spread only one kind of Christianity. Liberal Christians are found in smaller old fashioned churches in my area at least.

Someone I know went through a phase of ‘God will provide’ while they were training for ministry. It seemed to consist of happily taking their friends’ old stuff, without ever considering that the other person should perhaps get some value back for the item themself e.g. a pre-used laptop

Yes, God has ‘sent’ you a laptop that you can use for your theological studies but perhaps you applied some emotional pressure so that the other person felt obliged to give it to you?

Again, people are far more ready to be generous to an appealing young person or cute young family - less so the old, disabled or dispossessed.

Oh gosh badskiing mum yes I have had a couple of friends do similar when I was at uni for a charity or for other reasons.

And yes it was amazing how God "provided". Nothing at all to dk with moving in middle class circles and telling everyone you knew...

The v last church in this world I went to (c of E, new wine style but not a major player - but locally has anyone with kids/families) God used to provide houses/jobs and all sorts. Nothing of course to do with well qualified graduates actively looking for housing and a job.

I was in a tricky stage of life at this time and it really hurt to see "god provide" but only if you were current shiny people. Which also made me ashamed for when I was in that magic circle.

I went to a very evangelical church in London years ago (I think possibly a church plant from HTB)
At the time they had I think 16 members of staff but wanted another youth minister or similar, so for several weeks we had sermons about giving and were implored to give more so that we could be more impactful in the community. The minister told the congregation how much he gave to the church each month ....ignoring the fact that he lived in a house that (even 20 years ago) would have been worth £1m and his commute was walking across the road! So he had neither of the biggest expenses that most people attending would have had.

Oh gosh the whole living by faith thing. I have family members who do this, and other family members (not wealthy) who maintain them at considerable personal cost. I'd be much more comfortable with it if everyone was honest about the fact that it's family helping out family who won't/can't stand on their own feet financially. But to call it God's provision is just BS.

Yup. Vicars in large houses they don't have to pay for and very flexible working hours soon lose touch with those struggling in my experience.

No council tax either for clergy- you can live pretty well in London with the various benefits. Some of the vicarage’s are on roads with £3-4m houses. These are ex HTB/SS graduates. Of course.

In my area, the nice areas have a bog standard house built in the garden of what used to be a magnificent old vicarage.

The houses all have a downstairs study, for meetings.

On the local stipend, it’s quite tight. Single people or people having young families struggle.

And some of ours are politely described as serviceable, some are in poor condition.

Vicars where it’s the second income do really well. Where it’s the main income, not so good.

I agree with pickledandpuzzled. Most big vicarages/rectories here have been sold off and clergy housed in very standard 3 bed semis or similar. Where they have been specifically build for clergy they may have a downstairs study. Again some of these homes are not in massively good nick. I do know of one family still housed in a 1920s vicarage which has some very nice features but is not overall in a good state of internal decor/repair. The outside is reasonably sound. However this is definitely not posh parts of London and maybe it is different there.

In another area my mum actually lives in a modern house that was build in the old vicarage garden ( following the sale of the old vicarage and a modern small vicarage being built there.)

Archie Coates, Holy Trinity Brompton church vicar refers to this situation but totally avoids the apology that they should be making for platforming Mike Pilavachi and also uses it to promote their expensive leadership conference.... https://www.premierchristianity.com/opinion/why-would-people-choose-this-archie-coates-on-the-challenges-facing-church-leaders/17486.article - you couldn't make it up. How are those who go to htb not making the leadership accountable?

I suppose that article is about the leadership conference, not about the safeguarding debacle at not only Soul Survivor but every linked leadership church - as in, those who should have intervened but failed, not the ones who sent groups.

I do think leadership is hard- the safeguarding procedures I’ve been on the edge of have been really tough on all involved, regardless of guilt. They never end well. At least, not the ones I’ve seen (not in detail, obviously).

@pickledandpuzzled you're reading that in a very different way to how I saw it. Strange that they would be silent until the redmans did their video and now suddenly they just refer to it as being indicative of it being hard in leadership. Where's the accountability and explanation of culpability?

They absolutely should be, but that particular article is a just promo piece for the leadership conference.

You could message Premier saying ‘where is the piece on souls survivor?!’ I’m not a reader/subscriber, so can’t.

They shouldn’t be silent. At all.

The irony of that article talking about how important accountability is in leadership 🙄

It feels like ‘business as usual’ doesn’t it?

When actually everything should stop for assessment and discernment.

Are we waiting for something? A report? Investigation to be published?