Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Original poster

If there is a God...why is there...

487 replies

sentinent · 03/08/2023 00:14

As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
meatbaseddessert · 03/08/2023 06:13

Because he's very busy helping millionaire footballers score goals.

MariaVT65 · 03/08/2023 06:33

OP i think i’d really struggle to explain your question to anyone/kids. In my mind, there is pain and suffering because it is natural to get ill, even though it’s horrible that people like children suffer. There is also suffering because a lot of humans are bastards. God exists in people’s minds because they seek comfort in some way. I personally do not have a need for a god and don’t see the point.

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 03/08/2023 06:42

JaukiVexnoydi · 03/08/2023 01:00

Why are you holding God responsible for these things?

God created life. For there to be life there must be death, because death and life are intrinsically part of the same process. A system with no death is changeless, no birth, no renewal, no creativity.

Yet the existence of death doesn't require the existence of suffering. Given all the resources available on this planet, there could be no hunger and no war and no poverty if humans could just be unselfish and just only use their fair share of everything. Is God to blame that we choose not to do that?

And if all the human inginuity and creativity and investment that has gone into warfare had instead been directed at medical science had instead gone in to medical research, how many diseases would by now be eliminated? Why would that failure be God's fault?

God chose to create a universe where death exists because life cannot exist without death, and where suffering exists because God is Love and for Love to be valid, the Beloved must be truly free to say no, and to walk away, therefore free will must be possible, therefore suffering must be possible. But to cast us into that situation without caring wouldn't be loving so God placed Gods self right in the middle of that suffering and experienced it first-hand through incarnation as a human and dying in agony in order to not only share in the suffering that is intrinsic to the human condition, but also to transfigure it, and turn it into a bridge between humanity and divinity.

So god is so wonderful that he requires our suffering to create a bridge to the divine? To my mind that makes him narcissistic and psychopathic.

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 06:47

This explains it better than I can,

https://www.catholic.com/qa/how-can-i-make-emotional-sense-out-of-suffering-when-it-happens

meatbaseddessert · 03/08/2023 07:39

"God chose to create a universe where death exists because life cannot exist without death, and where suffering exists because God is Love and for Love to be valid, the Beloved must be truly free to say no, and to walk away, therefore free will must be possible, therefore suffering must be possible. But to cast us into that situation without caring wouldn't be loving so God placed Gods self right in the middle of that suffering and experienced it first-hand through incarnation as a human and dying in agony in order to not only share in the suffering that is intrinsic to the human condition, but also to transfigure it, and turn it into a bridge between humanity and divinity."

I've got a philosophy degree and although I've read this about 4 times it's a massive word salad. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Justleaveitblankthen · 03/08/2023 07:53

fullbloom87 · 03/08/2023 00:51

For the record I was raised a Christian but i don't call my self a Christian these days, however I do believe in a higher power and I've had too many experiences to think death is just the end.

But are the two mutually exclusive? Does believing in something after death mean there is a God?

Especially an omnipresent one?

Genuine question, because I believe in the former but not the latter.

SophiaElise · 03/08/2023 07:56

off · 03/08/2023 00:41

You're shitting me, right?

Person gets in car accident on unexpectedly icy road, and thanks to decades of human effort in car safety improvements, doesn't die instantly. A passerby recognises a person in need and calls for help using a telecoms system invented, set up by and run by human beings. An ambulance funded by taxpayers arrives, dispatched from a system set up by human beings to provide emergency assistance to others in need wherever they are. Police officers prevent further incident, firefighters extract the patient, EMTs/paramedics treat them and rush then to hospital. Then the entire healthcare system swings into action, and people who've dedicated their lives to helping others in their time of need rush to assist, drawing on their own years of education and hard work on top of centuries of human research into treatments, medicines, and human health all over the world — again within a system set up by and paid for by other people who think it a worthwhile use of money and effort. The person's life is saved.

And who gets the thanks? God. "By the grace of God I survived." "I prayed to God to let my relative live, and my prayers were answered." "Someone must've been watching over me that night." God gets plenty of credit!

Show quote history

Couldn't have put it better!

Annaishere · 03/08/2023 07:59

I disagree that god is love.

KnickerlessParsons · 03/08/2023 08:06

What if there IS a god but s/he is a malevolent one rather than a benevolent one? Makes much more sense to me.

Dasisr · 03/08/2023 08:16

the Beloved must be truly free to say no, and to walk away, therefore free will must be possible, therefore suffering must be possible

@JaukiVexnoydi so you’re saying suffering is free will - but people don’t exercise free will when they get cancer and suffer horribly! Im afraid that’s a massive hole in your theory

Turnleftturnright · 03/08/2023 08:25

If there is a god and god is good, would a good god not be humble. Why would a humble god want to be worshipped for their own gain. Why would a good god not want people to be able to freely be angry with them or express their opinions. Surely a good god would care more about people than what people think of them.

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 08:33

KnickerlessParsons · 03/08/2023 08:06

What if there IS a god but s/he is a malevolent one rather than a benevolent one? Makes much more sense to me.

There is a malevolent god, some Christians call him "Satan".

meatbaseddessert · 03/08/2023 08:34

Turnleftturnright · 03/08/2023 08:25

If there is a god and god is good, would a good god not be humble. Why would a humble god want to be worshipped for their own gain. Why would a good god not want people to be able to freely be angry with them or express their opinions. Surely a good god would care more about people than what people think of them.

God is a bit like a narcissistic boss I once had. I didn't worship him so he basically smoted me for most of my career and tried to block my promotion. He was a complete dick.

Thankfully he was eventually sacked for Gross Misconduct so there's that. Hopefully there's some universal equivalent for psychopathic grudging. gods.

Annaishere · 03/08/2023 08:34

Satan’s an angel

CurlewKate · 03/08/2023 08:41

@Hawkins009 "His brother would not have been born if hie hadn't died of Sid's and if he hadn't of been born he wouldn't be training to be a doctor who could potentially save a life or cure cancer or do something amazing"

How do you know his brother made for have been the one who could have cured cancer?

Original poster
sentinent · 03/08/2023 08:41

off · 03/08/2023 00:18

This is what I was looking for! Thank you @off !

OP posts:
Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 08:48

@ZebraDanios I think you’re saying that suffering, evil etc are the fault of humans rather than God. If that’s the case, why didn’t God create humans so that they were better and didn’t cause suffering?

I don't think anyone can answer that question.

I suppose that God could have created a race of perfect people and given them stewardship of planet earth. But He didn't, and on earth we have to live with the consequences.

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 08:50

Annaishere · 03/08/2023 08:34

Satan’s an angel

Since when ??

Annaishere · 03/08/2023 08:52

@Jackandjillswell he was gods most high ranking and most beautiful angel

Annaishere · 03/08/2023 08:52

But he disobeyed him

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 08:53

Annaishere · 03/08/2023 08:52

@Jackandjillswell he was gods most high ranking and most beautiful angel

Yes, apparently he was but he got sacked from that job for insubordination.

So he's not an angel now.

JaukiVexnoydi · 03/08/2023 09:00

ZebraDanios · 03/08/2023 02:37

I think you’re saying that suffering, evil etc are the fault of humans rather than God. If that’s the case, why didn’t God create humans so that they were better and didn’t cause suffering? (I’m not convinced I understand your final paragraph so apologies if you explained it there.)

Show quote history

Yes God could create humans that were mindless angels capable only of doing good. And the rich delight of the universe would be less.

As the great Terry Pratchett once wrote, balancing on the very cusp of where the falling angel meets the rising ape is the very essence of humanity.

For the good that people do, the love they feel for one another, the joy they can feel and the blessings they can bring to one another to be truly valid and not some kind of anodyne self-congratulatory ego exercise, the opposite choices must be open. And preprogramming us to always choose "good" is no choice. We can see and we can know the difference between right and wrong. We regularly choose what is bad for us, for other people, and for our descendents time and time again and we have been doing so for thousands of years - the vast majority of suffering today was caused not by God but by many human choices made over many years.

ZebraDanios · 03/08/2023 09:06

Jackandjillswell · 03/08/2023 08:48

@ZebraDanios I think you’re saying that suffering, evil etc are the fault of humans rather than God. If that’s the case, why didn’t God create humans so that they were better and didn’t cause suffering?

I don't think anyone can answer that question.

I suppose that God could have created a race of perfect people and given them stewardship of planet earth. But He didn't, and on earth we have to live with the consequences.

So he can’t possibly be all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, surely - because he either couldn’t make people perfect, doesn’t know they’re not, or doesn’t love his creations enough to make people good enough to take care of them?

Annaishere · 03/08/2023 09:09

ZebraDanios · 03/08/2023 09:06

So he can’t possibly be all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, surely - because he either couldn’t make people perfect, doesn’t know they’re not, or doesn’t love his creations enough to make people good enough to take care of them?

Show quote history

He did at first. But we ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But I don’t understand how Jesus could heal the sick but god can’t or won’t do that now

ZebraDanios · 03/08/2023 09:11

JaukiVexnoydi · 03/08/2023 09:00

Yes God could create humans that were mindless angels capable only of doing good. And the rich delight of the universe would be less.

As the great Terry Pratchett once wrote, balancing on the very cusp of where the falling angel meets the rising ape is the very essence of humanity.

For the good that people do, the love they feel for one another, the joy they can feel and the blessings they can bring to one another to be truly valid and not some kind of anodyne self-congratulatory ego exercise, the opposite choices must be open. And preprogramming us to always choose "good" is no choice. We can see and we can know the difference between right and wrong. We regularly choose what is bad for us, for other people, and for our descendents time and time again and we have been doing so for thousands of years - the vast majority of suffering today was caused not by God but by many human choices made over many years.

Show quote history

For me and I suspect many others the “rich delight of the universe” would definitely not be less without children suffering and dying from horrible diseases and people beating other people to death but you do I guess