If there is a God...why is there...

[sentinent]

As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

Yes it’s often difficult when you’re relying on the usual position of very incomplete texts (as is the situation to a greater or lesser extent of most belief systems). From a quick read up about Heraclitus he (or his followers) seem to have spoken about the unification of opposites and looking at how they weren’t too different things but a continuation of the same thing. (Something often found in her emetic texts). Whats the view on good and evil in this context, does he speak about that?

Were you drawn to the Greek mythology/philosophy for any reason do you know?

Blaming all suffering on human Free Will is pretty standard, but doesn't hold up.

In between creating the butterfly and the koala bear the Christian god created a parasite that kills children.

Not right away of course. First it blinds them and makes them suffer unimaginable pain and then it kills them. We know because god says so that he watches this from infection to death.

God also created miscarriages. He could have made wombs function perfectly, but he liked it better this way. Despite all the fuss about abortion being sinful he still holds the record for most fetuses terminated in a day. (most newborns drowned too but that's another story)

There are endless examples of suffering beyond human control, but even suffering caused by humans is his responsibility.

If you were warden of a prison for brutal criminals and you gave birth to a child would you drop it into the prison population unprotected and says "Hey I didn't do that to it. They did!"

Again we know he watches so he has sat through every child abuse/rape from beginning to end without acting.

If that makes anyone feel queasy it should, but good news! He isn't real.

God was invented as a means of controlling a tribe through bribery and fear.

It worked back then with unsophisticated tribesmen and oddly still works today because when more educated people spot the many mistakes and the cruel and nasty immorality they are told "god works in mysterious ways"

I often recommend reading the bible (all of it - not the pretty lines recommended by your priest).

It's not really possible to read it and believe in god, but most believers keep a bible for comfort and to show piety. Not because they want to know what it says.

No, this doesn't work either. Either god is all powerful and designed the devil as an instrument of torture or someone else created the devil and god is unable to prevent him hurting people.

I recommend people read the book of Job. In it god has a wager with Satan that Job will stay loyal despite anything Satan can do to him.

it's a fun story in which god has Satan murder Job's livestock, his wife and even his kids.

Don't worry, Job got another wife and had more children later so no harm done.

What an arrogant statement

“It worked back then with unsophisticated tribesmen and oddly still works today because when more educated people spot the many mistakes and the cruel and nasty immorality they are told "god works in mysterious ways"”

Some of the most erudite people I know believe in a higher power.

Yep modern man has become so sophisticated that he is very likely to cause the end of the world in the not so distant future. So sophisticated that buying certain cloth to wrap round the body shaped in certain ways and dyed to filter and reflect and absorb light in certain ways is more important than the continuation of the planet. Yes the Uber Menschen is here!

You have exhibited perhaps the most uneducated stance. slagging off the majority of humans who have ever existed, by the looks of things due to entirely personal feelings and arrogance that out of all of human experience you exist in a bubble of superiority.

Yes I have read the whole Bible, cover to cover (not just the “Pretty lines” Ffs) together with numerous other holy texts and philosophical texts. What is obvious many great minds have analysed the questions being addressed in this thread, over and over throughout millennia. Thankfully, most have reached far more sophisticated conclusions than yours.

And of course it’s possible to read the Bible and believe in God, what an absolutely absurd statement.

it’s clear you suffer from religious trauma in some manner.

Well I might have more confidence in your claim to have read the bible if you had managed to read my post correctly.

If you look again you will see that I said that it "It worked back then with unsophisticated tribesmen" (of course they were unsophisticated. It's an observation not an insult)

AND "still works today because when more educated people spot the many mistakes and the cruel and nasty immorality they are told "god works in mysterious ways"

The point being that while religion has suffered because our education level is so much higher it survives because apologists pile excuse upon excuse for it and work to misdirect people.

like your attempt here.

When you thought I was insulting the intelligence of believers you found that arrogant, but then launched into insulting modern society and mocking them for the fuss they make about what clothes they wear. A bit unfortunate given god's feelings about the right kind of clothing, but you weren't to know.

Not all modern society. Those who agree with you are erudite apparently.

You completely fail to address any part of my post even though if we are to believe you the book of Job is familiar to you.

Even if not most people would have opinions on the desirability of not creating mechanisms to torture and kill children.

Instead you tell me lots of 'great minds' have dealt with this and came up with responses to be used to counter the questions of believers. Which is my position of course. "god works in mysterious ways' refers to such arguments.

A shame you couldn't recall any of their arguments. I could help you with that if you like.

For example you could have tried claiming it was moral and I just didn't understand it.

You could have claimed that it didn't happen, but was metaphor.

You might have said that torturing kids to death IS moral if they have a chance of going to heaven (a fairly common claim)

Another method would be to say that because of original since all children deserve to be tortured and that's when you remind people that Jesus died for them to change the subject to something more positive.

because of original SIN not Since

fullbloom87 the god of the bible is a mass murderer of children and approves of them being used for abuse.

Even if you're not familiar with the bible you probably remember Noah's Ark. Where god drowned every man, woman and child except for one family?

You probably saw it with a pretty rainbow and they would not have included the cold dead babies floating in the water.

Did you learn about the Plagues of Eqypt where god killed the firstborn in every house? Ranging from young adults to newborns. Imagine their Egyptian mothers thinking "the baby is usually awake and gurgling by now".

I hate even typing that because it's so nasty - even though I know it's fiction, but you worship the god that the bible says did it. Something to think about perhaps because you are better than that. You wouldn't let it happen if you were there would you.

Most, if not all, Christians are better than the god they worship.

Whilst I appreciate your attempts to double down, I’d like to address a few points (most of which have been made up thread).

There is a clear implied stance that you can’t blame the “unsophisticated tribesmen” (are you thinking here of any particular “tribesmen”?) because they’re more gullible/less intelligent than the educated people who point out the shortcomings of the bible. Otherwise, why make the comparison?

“A shame you couldn't recall any of their arguments. I could help you with that if you like.” Actually, I really doubt it. You appear to only have one idea to back up your claim as it supports your narrow world view, “that God works in mysterious ways”. I can help you identify the actual variety of explanations if you like (as you made the sane kind offer to me). For example, you might want to look into theories regarding emanation such as Neoplatonism, the varied morals and actions of gods/goddesses in polytheistic cultures. Deism would obviously also provide an explanation, most of these points have already been discussed at various lengths in the thread and others on the forum.

“Not all modern society. Those who agree with you are erudite apparently” I actually said some of the most erudite people I know believe in a higher power. This is completely different from the inductive reasoning you seem to be reading into my statement. I’m surprised you cannot see the difference.

I’m well aware of the trading standards regarding mixed fibres in the bible. It might even be why I used that example. It works on several levels- think it through.

But anyway… carry on with your thrashing about if it’s helping you.

Dear Christ, it’s you again isn’t it? Maybe if you tried changing the way you spoke to people, rather than just your user name and harassing me (and certain other posters) it wouldn’t be so easy to spot. it’s getting extraordinarily boring now!

Too many atrocities have ever been committed in 'God's name' for me to ever believe 'he' is anything other that a useful tool to control people.

Blame men (and it’s always men, not women) for the atrocities arrived out in the name of religion. If there was no religion (have a look at places like China or North Korea) there would still be men craving power carrying out atrocities in the name of something else.