If there is a God...why is there...

[sentinent]

As advised by another poster, this post deserves a pot of its own. Something that's been niggling at me for a while now; for those who believe (or even not believe) in the existence of God/a higher power, (I firmly do believe btw), how do we explain children in pain, suffering, getting terminal diseases or being killed??

Without evil or bad in the world, we wouldn't know what was pure or good. We need unhappiness to know what happiness is. Dark to know what light is etc.

I find this argument borderline evil. Terrible, awful things happen to one person so another can feel grateful for their pleasant life? That’s absolutely horrible. What, some women are brutalized and raped so other women can enjoy having bodily autonomy? Some children are hated and abused by parents so others can appreciate having loving families? Some children are bereaved so others appreciate their living parents? Some parents watch their children suffer and wither with terrible diseases so others appreciate their easier lives with healthy children who will grow up and thrive?

Odious, odious argument when applied to real world trauma and suffering.

I suggest you study nature. There is terrible suffering built into the natural world that long, long preceded human kinds’ emergence.

It’s a shame you’ve assumed my questions come from a place of malice and belligerence rather than genuine curiosity. I don’t know many people with a definite belief in God who are willing to debate it, and assumed that as you joined in this debate then you were. I’m sorry I offended you.

Agree, only my sister was wide awake having just attended to 2 young children in the back of the car. I also agree with seeing is believing although there are occasions where you just have to trust people.

Well said.

I think of it like this:

We are made to be in complete harmonious unity with God and all of creation. Just as the cells of our bodies (and of the other organisms in our bodies we have symbiotic relationship with) are meant to be in complete harmonious unity with us. With complete harmonious unity knowledge is utilised for the common good - not necessarily known' by all at the same time, just as your foot might not know what is going on in your hand but the messages from the brain get through when necessary. Yet each individual cell of us has a nucleus, a type of intelligence. With memory. The more organisms that we have harmonious unity with the bigger 'we' / the effects of 'us' get. Each person is a community considering how we host many many 'foreign' organisms. So if you imagine who whole of creation as being in unity with God it is like the community of our own bodies but much bigger.

However this complete harmonious unity has been lost since The Fall. We wanted complete knowledge instead of relying upon the knowledge centre of God. We grew bigger brains, which led to painful childbirth but still could not know everything in terms of being able to look after this world properly. We have raped the world of its resources and exploited each other. As we reproduce, generation upon generation, the rift between us and God, what we were designed to be, can get bigger as our DNA is preset to functioning according to our habits and adapts. Then there is suffering.

Within my Faith I aim to restore unity with God and hopefully relieve suffering.

I meant to add the family were on holiday on a day out. My sisters DH was driving very slowly so they could take in the view. This gave her time to take it all in then process what she saw.

"This gave her time to take it all in then process what she saw."

But not to say-"Wow, look everyone, what's that??"

Suppose we take this story at face value. We now have a god who wants or needs to deny humanity knowledge. Why? Knowledge is the most valuable thing in the universe. Why would this god want to deny humanity knowledge?

"Suppose we take this story at face value. We now have a god who wants or needs to deny humanity knowledge. Why? Knowledge is the most valuable thing in the universe. Why would this god want to deny humanity knowledge?"

@Ponderingwindow, have you read my 13:24 post? I think it gives an explanation. If we are in unity with God we share His knowledge, it's available as and when we need it. By wanting all knowledge for ourselves we had to grow brains that are relating big for our bodies (painful childbirth) and still we cannot live in harmony with everything else in creation. We have no unified theory. Yet in unity with God we share infinite knowledge of everything in existence.

I mean, what happens to us when our individual cells go rogue and decide to act against what is good for our bodies? Act only upon their own needs and information. Or the organisms we host act selfishly and are invasive / take too much of our resources? We can become ill and ultimately die...

So at The Fall we became separated from God because we demanded the knowledge for ourselves, separately, stored separately, instead of relying upon the shared God centred knowledge which we had access to through unity with Him.

Apparently it makes us evil and die

Is the logical conclusion of this that, had no-one eaten the apple, all subsequent humans would have had tiny heads and therefore easy births?

(Clearly head size is a thing but I thought human childbirth was difficult largely because walking upright gave us relatively narrow hips…?)

Also I kind of feel like God didn’t do too great a job creating humans if the first two he ever created made the biggest mistake of all time and ruined everything for the rest of humanity and the planet. You’d think we’d have muddled along for at least a few generations before everything went wrong?

“Nature, red in tooth and claw” indeed.

While I totally agree that there’s a whole load of suffering in the natural world, are there cases of deliberate and pointless cruelty among animals, or is that a uniquely human thing? Genuine question - there may well be examples of animals causing suffering for reasons other than their own survival.

Yes, it happens amongst other species than humans. Look up the Gombe chimpanzee war. Also, rape is relatively common amongst other creatures.

@ZebraDanios, perhaps. These are my musings but it make sense to me.

"Also I kind of feel like God didn’t do too great a job creating humans if the first two he ever created made the biggest mistake of all time and ruined everything for the rest of humanity and the planet. You’d think we’d have muddled along for at least a few generations before everything went wrong?"

But if you look at this from the perspective of a creator that exists throughout all time, this could be a comparatively very short process that is worth it in the long run. Perhaps it is necessary for willing unity, perhaps it increases the stretch of consciousness.

Perhaps it is like we are still at a kind of the earliest foetus stage compared to what we can become through unity with God?

"While I totally agree that there’s a whole load of suffering in the natural world, are there cases of deliberate and pointless cruelty among animals, or is that a uniquely human thing?'

@ZebraDanios, cats playing with their prey?

"Apparently it makes us evil and die"

@Annaishere not what I was saying. Independent knowledge to be used selfishly, guarded and not shared. Used for furthering self. Wanting possession and ownership of knowledge rather than sharing and using knowledge in harmonious unity with the Creator and the rest of Creation is what is evil (separate/without,apart from God).

Who knew copyright laws were satanic.

Which sect of Christianity is it that preaches against intellectual property, out of interest?

off, knowledge isn't copyrighted is it? It's the creative use of it to produce art.

Well, sorry, the artistic product is what is copyrighted.