Will you make it to Heaven?

[Vincitveritas]

Take the quiz and see!

jesusplusnothing.com/the-heaven-test

If the church minded its own business then I would have no issue.

Unfortunately it has served to inform the foundations of our society.

And it is ugly.
It gives permission to patriarchy, underlines the idea that men's ways are superior and has moulded a culture that enables men to lead and control.
Just as the bible tells us.
Religion fuels misogyny, homophobia, racism and fuels the power that men have over everthing- business, finance, politics, allowing women to be trampled, have voices and reproductive choices removed.
It's only in recent times that women have been allowed to study at univeristy, in very recent times women were not allowed to have a loan or a credit card without the permision from their husband have equal pay.
Marital rape wasn't a crime in the UK until the 1990s.

The church has had a catastrophic influence on women's rights, and continues to have influence in many spheres.

it really upsets me to see it being used as a tool of abuse.

@Mustardseed86 I really think you're being disingenuous now and this comment is incredibly offensive.

@Vincitveritas

It might be offensive to you but that doesn't make it disingenuous, or wrong. I have strong views on the way you're misusing the Bible. I've explained my beliefs, I've dicussed the differences in the original language, context and understanding and you just copy and paste verse after verse about punishment while still ignoring everything I've said about how particular words and phrases would have been understood at the time.

I do call it abusive to tell people that everything good they ever try to do throughout their lives is considered 'filthy rags' as far as God is concerned (verses stripped of context, again) and they will therefore be subjected to an eternity of unimaginable, irrevocable conscious torment because they made the wrong decision about which faith (if any) has the best claim on truth. As if there are no other valid interpretations of a (collection of) books which famously has spawned multiple thousands of denominations!

@Mustardseed86 very well explained and exactly how I feel.

This I 100% agree with. Whatever one’s stance is regarding Christianity, one must accept that it has been used to subjugate women for 2000 years. Where Christian’s have tried to create equality between men and women (eg as the gnostics did to an extent) they are quickly rooted out and condemned. Christianity has rewritten spirituality to erase the feminine and in the process created an unbalanced projective force. Christianity has lost the ability to receive the grace of god and instead become a mechanism to project man’s display of vulgar power on the Earth.

I have to say thank you for your thoughtful erudite responses throughout this thread. Although I suspect our views on many things differ I’ve found your responses both illuminating and respectful

@Mustardseed86 I second @OMG12 's words. Your nuanced words and non-use of pasted screeds free of context are insightful and refreshing.

@Parker231

The Bible is a book of stories written by a number of different people - some may be true and others definitely not.

I obviously don't share this view.

It’s not the version of creation I believe in. I’ll stick with the scientific version.

There are Christians who are scientifically minded you know! It doesn't always have to be at odds.

Churches are discriminatory (as I have mentioned earlier but you avoided) - they don’t support same sex church marriages or a womens right to make decisions about her own body.

I have given you my opinion in both of those issues. Are you saying you don't want any part in Christianity because you see the Church as discriminatory?

I don’t want to be a part of the Christian faith (or any other religion) as I don’t believe in god, heaven or hell (and have serious doubts about the accuracy of the Bible) and yes the church is discriminatory (that should worry everyone).
Sorry can’t find your responses about the church and same sex marriage or a womens rights to choose an abortion.

@OMG12

Actually, I don’t agree that there is a right and wrong interpretation, each person might have a right and wrong interpretation for them, but really that’s as far as it goes.

That would make sense given you are a Gnostic. This is from GotQuestions:

'Gnosticism is based on a mystical, intuitive, subjective, inward, emotional approach to truth which is not new at all. It is very old, going back in some form to the Garden of Eden, where Satan questioned God and the words He spoke and convinced Adam and Eve to reject them and accept a lie. He does the same thing today as he “prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). He still calls God and the Bible into question and catches in his web those who are either naïve and scripturally uninformed or who are seeking some personal revelation to make them feel special, unique, and superior to others. Let us follow the Apostle Paul who said to “test everything. Hold on to the good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21), and this we do by comparing everything to the Word of God, the only Truth.'

Cold Case Christianity:
'There are only two kinds of truth claims. Subjective truth claims are grounded in a human subject. Objective truth claims are grounded in an object. Here are two easy ways to discover which kind of truth claim is being made:

• If you can change a truth claim, it is subjective. If not, it’s objective.
Example: “Vanilla is the best flavor of ice cream” vs. “George Washington was a President.”

• If you can verify or falsify a claim, it is objective. If not, it’s subjective.
Example: “Mice are smaller than elephants” vs. “Superman is better than Batman.”

Since subjective truth claims are preferences that don’t universally apply, they are not usually worth arguing over. However, objective claims are worth investigating since they are true whether anyone wants them to be or not. The bigger the objective claim, the more important it is to come to terms with whether or not it is true and what it will mean for your life.

Why is this such an important arena for Christians to understand and discuss?
The Bible presents objective truth claims. If true, they are true for everyone, always. Knowing this, our Christian convictions are not “our truth” because they can be examined rationally. Since the events of the gospel are historical, they can be examined like any other historical claim. Since the gospels claim to be eyewitness testimony, they can be verified like all testimony.

Additionally, many of the objective claims of the Bible are in strong contrast with subjective claims by people. For example, the claim “I am a good person” has no power to change the judgment of God when he says “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Subjective assessment also has no power to change the statement “The wages of sin is death.” As I told someone in conversation once, “When we face God in judgment, He doesn’t judge us by our own standards but by His perfect standard.” Ignoring the reality and judgment of sin is like ignoring a wildfire headed for your house: you may not like the idea, but you need to face it.

As Paul notes, if Jesus did not actually rise from the dead, “our preaching is useless and so is your faith.” (1 Corinthians 15:14) In saying this, Paul is giving a way to falsify an objective truth claim. If Jesus did actually come to life again, then Christians don’t have just a comforting story to share, but the best news anyone could ever hear!'

If you believe in the Lord as your saviour then that is all you need to go to Heaven. Acknowledge that every single one of has sinned and continues to sin, believer or not but accept that Christ died for our sins to give us eternal life. That’s about it, it’s not that hard. The rest follows . I know that my Redeemer lives.

As a non believer I’m not looking to get to heaven. Nor am I a sinner - I consider it offensive to say that someone is one. As I don’t acknowledge god/Jesus I’m not asking anything of them.

The arrogance is astounding. I readily admit that I don't and can't know with any certainty; I believe in something that keeps me sane in a world that isn't. And that is all it is: belief. This is what OP doesn't understand.

@pointythings By that logic @Parker231 is also arrogant since she stated she was 100% sure that God doesn't exist, along with the many other atheists who claim the same thing.

@watmel
You get comfort and joy from the idea that everyone who doesn't follow your religion will suffer for all Eternity?

No, that would be extremely weird, particularly considering it may well include quite a few of my dearly loved family and friends.

But you can't come on here and claim that you are 100% right about everything and be surprised that pther people don't like that.

I wasn't claiming to know everything. I was addressing the Christian poster who denied the existence of Hell.

@OMG12
Jesus said “Love one another as I have loved you” and how did Jesus love? He loved the prostitute, the blind and the lame, the people who killed him. His love wasn’t saved for those who worshipped him, those who were like him.

I am well aware of this - it is the very reason I started this thread. Nowhere have I suggested I/God only care about Christians. Jesus also said “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 5:31-32. Preaching isn't much use if it's kept within the walls of a church.

It’s is vanity linked to pride. It is a sin and The Bible has a lot to say on the matter

I have many faults, vanity however is not one of them. Have you read the article you linked?

'...His vanity decided that he was important enough to disregard the command of the Lord and make things happen in his own way.'

'Vanity can cause us to become impressed with our own greatness, achievements, or attractiveness. Left unchecked, vanity decides that we, like Saul, are important enough to disregard God’s commands and make things happen in our own way.'

I am doing the exact opposite.
The biblical definition of faith, as found in the book of Hebrews, is "confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." This is what is being mistaken for arrogance.

@speakout You're making more very sweeping statements. As someone from a Baptist background, I agree that 'the Church' has sadly done a lot of harm over the years.

@Mustardseed86 I am not misusing the Bible - if anyone is taking verses out of context, it's you. I have repeatedly said that God's love extends to all people. Judgment is only part of the story.

First of all, I am not a Gnostic. Why do you keep trying to put labels on people? Secondly, your classification of objective and subjective truths as applicable to the Bible and your ascertation that the Bible has objective truths is based only on your literal understanding of the Bible. If that’s how you read the Bible then that’s bound to be your take.

However, I see the bible as being multilayered and entirely consistent with subjective truths.

Each interpretation is equally true, your interpretation is true to you and mine to me. But your truth can only stand snd be shared by other literalists. You will no doubt, using that model consider me wrong, that is your permit I’ve, your truth. You are entitled to that. That is your path though not mine.

Unfortunately it has served to inform the foundations of our society.

And it is ugly.
It gives permission to patriarchy, underlines the idea that men's ways are superior and has moulded a culture that enables men to lead and control.

Whatever one’s stance is regarding Christianity, one must accept that it has been used to subjugate women for 2000 years.

Yes and no - I would argue that Christianity represented quite a radical and positive change in the treatment of women. There are definitely some misogynistic strands in the cultural thread but I personally believe that's a result of 'male pattern' sinfulness which seeks to control and subjugate and twists religious principles in order to do that.

But I also don't think you can get around the fact that throughout early human history women were at a disadvantage in terms of our physical needs and vulnerability, including pregnancies and nursing etc, and at risk from male testosterone-fuelled tendencies which IMO still require a strong moral framework to keep in check. The Judeo-Christian sexual morality framework looks pretty appalling from some perspectives but it did create a cohesive society that protected women from the excesses found in some other cultures - actually including our own if you look at the abuse of women that is so normalised now. IMO this is also why most of the Jewish sexual precepts/rules were aimed at men.

I think by making progress against the subjugation of women we've actually built on and developed culturally Christian principles, so that suggests that the foundations aren't quite as ugly as they may look at first glance.

@Vincitveritas
For example, the claim “I am a good person” has no power to change the judgment of God when he says “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” Subjective assessment also has no power to change the statement “The wages of sin is death.” As I told someone in conversation once, “When we face God in judgment, He doesn’t judge us by our own standards but by His perfect standard.” Ignoring the reality and judgment of sin is like ignoring a wildfire headed for your house: you may not like the idea, but you need to face it.

Why do you continue to post about sin when I and others have said that an imaginary god we don’t believe in, can have no judgement over our lives or actions. It’s threatening language which is not correct. Why should we face up to this?

No, that would be extremely weird, particularly considering it may well include quite a few of my dearly loved family and friends.

Do you smugly tell your family and friends that they deserve to burn in hell for eternity for not sharing your beliefs, or do you save that for when you're anonymous?

@Mustardseed86 I am not misusing the Bible - if anyone is taking verses out of context, it's you. I have repeatedly said that God's love extends to all people. Judgment is only part of the story.

Well, I tried. Let's agree to disagree on that one. Only one interpretation shall henceforth be allowed of words with multiple meanings from an ancient culture - got it.

The funny thing is it's not possible to read the Bible in that way consistently all the way through without tying yourself up in knots, but you've obviously found a hermeneutic approach that squares that circle. And now I'm wondering how someone might take my strange statements about knots and square circles in another few millennia...

“It’s is vanity linked to pride. It is a sin and The Bible has a lot to say on the matter

I have many faults, vanity however is not one of them. Have you read the article you linked?

'...His vanity decided that he was important enough to disregard the command of the Lord and make things happen in his own way.'

'Vanity can cause us to become impressed with our own greatness, achievements, or attractiveness. Left unchecked, vanity decides that we, like Saul, are important enough to disregard God’s commands and make things happen in our own way.'

I am doing the exact opposite.
The biblical definition of faith, as found in the book of Hebrews, is "confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." This is what is being mistaken for arrogance.”

Yes I have read the article which is why I linked it.

To quote the same passage from the book of Hebrews “confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see." What “we” hope for and see not what a religion tells us. That is not faith that is compliance.

You are assuming your view is correct and equates to that of Gods even though many Christians disagree, are these Christian’s tools of Satan? That is vanity, that is pride.

I have given you my opinion in both of those issues. Are you saying you don't want any part in Christianity because you see the Church as discriminatory?

@Vincitveritas

Are you really surprised that some people would be put off Christianity because of the attitudes and actions of some christians and churches towards women and gay people, both historically and in (in many but not all denominations) today?

@pointythings By that logic @Parker231 is also arrogant since she stated she was 100% sure that God doesn't exist, along with the many other atheists who claim the same thing.

The huge difference is that @Parker231 isn't proselytising and threatening people that they will go to Hell if they don't believe exactly as she does. Or whatever atheist Hell is. Probably watching the same episode of Love Island over and over again for all eternity.

The Bible presents objective truth claims. If true, they are true for everyone, always. Knowing this, our Christian convictions are not “our truth” because they can be examined rationally. Since the events of the gospel are historical, they can be examined like any other historical claim. Since the gospels claim to be eyewitness testimony, they can be verified like all testimony.

And that is the old circular argument - the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true. There's nothing rational about that - it's a faith position like any other. If your premise is 'The Bible is true' then everything else flows logically from that - but it's a plain old logical fallacy because it is based on a false premise, or at least one that cannot be shown to be true.

Eyewitness testimony has been shown over and over again to be incredibly unreliable. Huge miscarriages of justice have been based on eyewitness testimony. I set very little store by it.

But pointythings you must accept it to some degree, or you'd have to reject pretty much every historical event, outside of the 20th century and beyond at least. Of course historians don't accept eyewitness testimony uncritically but there's usually a process by which these things are assessed.

Of course if you think the events described are totally impossible then you might dismiss it on that basis. But at the very least you have to concede that Christianity started with historical events of some kind?

@Mustardseed86 I believe that history is written by the victors. So what you do as a historian is read widely from sources on all sides of any issue and then work out that 1) you can never know the truth and 2) it will lie somewhere in the middle. History isn't a science, it's a humanity, and humans are unreliable beasts.

I'm an archaeologist by training and we know all about the limitations of evidence.

So yes, I believe much of the history around the birth of Jesus. I believe there was a chap called Paul who was probably the world's first incel. But the miracles and all that? Meh, no.

Don't get me wrong, Jesus had some decent ideas - but so have many other men and women had decent ideas that took hold. A deity is not required for this to happen.

Thanks, that's very interesting. 😊

I so enjoy reading the New Testament and find it rings true, all the little human details, and then I also think the people who wrote it come across with such conviction and integrity. So I don't dismiss any of it. But that's me. I've read around it as much as I can, and spent a number of years not believing but then somehow... I did. Which almost surprises me tbh! Not claiming any particular expertise though, beyond amateur enthusiasm.

@Mustardseed86 that just shows there were some good writers/translators involved. I mean, I've read some excellent fiction which has the same qualities.

But your faith is yours, it makes you happy and best of all, you don't menace, threaten and beat people (metaphorically) over the head with it. I love your positivity.

that just shows there were some good writers/translators involved. I mean, I've read some excellent fiction which has the same qualities.

Yes, that definitely helps.

But your faith is yours, it makes you happy and best of all, you don't menace, threaten and beat people (metaphorically) over the head with it. I love your positivity.

Thank you!